I Read the Bible to Judge It, and It Judged Me

MichaelWhat's your name?

GavinMy name's Gavin.

MichaelGavin, I'm Michael. Good to meet you. So, where are you from?

GavinOhio.

MichaelOh yeah, me too.

GavinNot this area, but a smaller county. Most people were religious, actually.

MichaelYeah, what county?

GavinUnion. Do you know Union?

MichaelOh yeah, I lived in Richwood recently.

GavinThat's pretty cool.

MichaelYeah, Richwood's in Union County.

GavinI go to Marysville.

MichaelWell, I went to John Carroll University in Cleveland, but I live in LaRue. I live in Marion County.

GavinNow?

MichaelYeah, yeah, I do now. My name's Michael. I think I might have told you that.

GavinNice to meet you, Michael.

MichaelYeah, you too. So did you grow up in a Christian home?

GavinI did. I did grow up in a Christian home.

MichaelSo what kind of church did your parents take you to?

GavinThey didn't go to church.

MichaelOkay, but they would say they were Christian.

GavinThey went to church when they were younger.

MichaelOh, okay.

GavinAnd they still, like, parented with the gospel.

MichaelSo they would still say they were Christian. So what would you say the gospel is?

GavinA Bible. I don't know.

MichaelYou don't know?

GavinI would just say just anything where it's like its root is like within. This is a preconceived belief among our religion or Christians. They didn't come from like, they weren't Catholic, they were just Christians.

MichaelOkay, so you were taught...

GavinTo be fair, they weren't really, you know...

MichaelThey're probably not Bible thumpers like I would be, but...

GavinProbably not.

MichaelBut they were Christian enough that you knew they weren't something else.

GavinYeah.

MichaelYeah, so would they have taught you that you were a sinner and that you needed a Savior, and that that Savior could...

GavinMy grandmother would say stuff like that, but they were really more focused on, like, It's sort of like society's expectations. I'm trying to think of like, through the lens of Christianity, but still working like, I don't know, it's really hard to explain. It feels like they were Christian because they felt like they had to be.

MichaelSo it's almost like they were born Christian because they were in a culture where that was the norm, But it maybe wasn't really their faith in their heart. But they didn't really adopt anything else either, so that's what they were.

GavinThat makes sense. My dad was, when he was my age, he was not religious. He grew up in a religious household, strayed from religion, went back to religion. And sort of his thing is he's very separate from the church. He, I think, is a Bible thumper, but he never really refers back to any text. He's sort of like, he's like an electrical engineer. He's like, just, I'm super principled. This is what I believe. And he just sort of stays alone.

MichaelSo what would you, like, what would you believe then? Like if I just said, hey, how do I, what happens to me when I die? What would you think?

GavinI mean, I just think it's like anything else that roams around. It's like, once you're gone, you're gone. Nature works in accordance with nature.

MichaelSo is there like an eternal soul that keeps going?

GavinNo, I think we just sort of...

MichaelSo we're just sort of like rocks or tigers, we just go to the ground?

GavinYep.

MichaelSo if there's no soul...

GavinIf there is no soul... Is your belief of the soul that a human has a soul, a dog doesn't?

MichaelI would say so, yes.

GavinThat's where I struggle, because I look into the eyes of animals, and I can see the same thoughts that I have. I just see that within our own biology we've been pushed to think more and with more thought comes more danger and with more danger comes more thought. It's kind of an evolutionary thing. That's always how I've seen it.

MichaelYeah.

GavinBut it's not like I reference that many things of like, oh, I've read this and this is scientifically accurate. It's more just like through the lens of my world and what's been given to me. This is sort of what I believe.

MichaelSo can I make a challenge and see what you think of it?

GavinThat's why I'm here is to be challenged.

MichaelThat's great. A lot of people don't even want to be challenged. So in the animal kingdom, let's take an animal. If you see a whatever, a tiger, we don't see tigers. I can't think of good examples. But if you saw a tiger kill an animal and eat it, you wouldn't think there was any kind of moral anything. You'd just be like, that's just what tigers do.

GavinJust as humans in olden ages when they were eating each other. I feel like that's like...

MichaelBut so would you, hey Drew, or Andrew, would you see, so if we're not really that fundamentally different from dogs and other things, then how do you account for the existence at all of morality?

GavinI think it's because we have communication that's high enough to where we can form society where it's like we grow more and we have more of an understanding that it's a lot more fun and easy to live with people than without people. And we sort of created a family structure. We created our society.

MichaelOkay, so morality is utilitarian in your view.

GavinI mean, it's utilitarian where it is utilitarian.

MichaelWell, what I mean is, like, we only don't kill each other because we've learned that that seems to... Well, we do, but the only reason we don't maybe do it more, or why we even call it wrong... Like, we have murder laws, right?

GavinWell, it's not... I don't think that we innately want to kill each other. Like, the morality exists of when we get to kill each other and we choose. Like, we're like, oh, we're allowed to kill people in war.

MichaelBut I'm saying, why would we come up with a moral standard whatsoever? If we're just like dogs.

GavinIt's obvious where religion was used as a tool. It's just like, okay, well, if you don't do what I say, I'm literally speaking from God right now, you will go to hell. I feel like that's like, if that's not an obvious tool, I don't know what is.

MichaelI'm not going to disagree that religion's been used for evil a lot. So I'm with you that it's happened. We may not always agree on the details. But I guess what I want to come back with is that if we're just sort of higher evolved forms in the animal kingdom, that still doesn't account for the things we call right and wrong.

GavinLike what?

MichaelStealing, marriage and adultery, cheating on a test. If we're part of just this evolutionary...

GavinIsn't it like for all those that there's like a long list of things where, like, I don't know, let's pick one of those things that you named.

MichaelI mean, we'll pick cheating on a test. We're out of school. People would say that we'd all agree that's wrong. We'd all agree that,

GavinI wouldn't say that we'd agree that it's wrong. I would say that we agree that if you cheat on a test, therefore, you will not retain the stuff from the test that you would have learned. And therefore, there's university that giving out a degree is hugely, there's a lot of laws behind that. And so, every person who cheats and gets away with not retaining the information, that university looks worse. And so, it's infrastructurally and culturally that it's bad to cheat on a test. But I don't think it's necessarily immoral.

MichaelOkay, so that's a good example then of it not being necessarily moral.

GavinBut I think that everything is not necessarily moral.

MichaelSo what about raping a woman? Can we say that's objectively wrong?

GavinWe can say that it's objectively that person is chasing a feeling of expression that they're not wanting. They can't express in other areas and they feel that this is the only way.

MichaelThe rapist.

GavinYes.

MichaelAnd can we say it's objectively wrong what he's saying?

GavinIt's objectively wrong as we can say that it's objectively wrong to steal from somebody else. You're literally, you're taking something from somebody else. You're almost murdering them. To say that, like, but that's also to say that, like, it's still a thing of, I still think that there's a biological component there and that society tells people that it's wrong.

MichaelSo you're not convinced that it's universally, morally, objectively wrong to rape. You think that it's societally understanding it.

GavinCorrect. I think that everything is societal. I think that if you look at, like, in... In history, there are people that would follow your God and would rape and pillage. And it was not seen societally as morally wrong. And there were people that were way smarter and would, at the time, find it justified. I think that a lot of the times this talk on morality and religion is really just people think what they think and they want to think what they think and they structure the book around what they think. At least that's what I see from a lot of the time. I truly enough have not talked to many people that were foundational Christians that truly would make an active change in their life if it better followed the text.

MichaelOkay, I'll agree with you. And I'll guess that probably a lot of people you've met are like that. So what I would say is this. You're actually pleasantly honest and consistent. I think that you're mistaken about how we develop morality. I don't think it's so much societal.

GavinI still think there's a guilt component, though, that is what you would be referring to as like, I don't know, what is the Christian reference of morality that you're talking about?

MichaelYeah, so for example, I think that God has revealed his morality, at least some of his primary morals, especially the ones that allow societies to flourish through nature. So, societies that don't know anything about the Bible can figure out from observation what you've already pointed out, that murder doesn't seem to work, stealing doesn't work, rape doesn't work, it makes people upset. So, not only does it not work, but it hurts people, and we kind of all know we shouldn't hurt others, right?

GavinThey're all tied in one group of not work, doesn't work. It's all...

MichaelYeah, not only...

GavinDoesn't work for what we want to do.

MichaelIt seems to not advance civilization. It seems to not cause us to flourish. So therefore we shouldn't steal. People actually end up working harder when they can feel like they can get property that's not taken away. So they'll work hard, produce more things. But I think that the reason why it's the case is that God has built the system. There's a system. There's a system and there's laws in place that God has put where certain things work better because they're morally right. But then you also have the fact that a guy can get away with stealing and enjoy himself. Okay, and so someone could argue back and say, well, you could break God's law.

GavinHonestly, that's the hard part is I would never argue that because anytime I've like, I've always came back to the same thing with debating this Christianity. Not that I do this often.

MichaelThat's fine.

GavinBut the same thing is really hard because it's something of faith. It's error or faith, something of faith. So, any example where I could give to be like, well, it's not true because of this, then the answer is obviously, well, of course there has to be counters to the rule. Otherwise, that would be an obvious tell, and then there would be no faith involved, everybody would be Christian.

MichaelWell, part of it is, if God struck everyone dead the moment that they broke his law, and didn't give them any hope, then we'd all just be dead pretty young. And so God...

GavinThat's an argument that I haven't heard before.

MichaelGod allows us to continue to exist even though some of us do things wrong because we'd implode if he just took us all out when we weren't perfect because we're all imperfect. But I think God's also revealed his law through...

GavinIs that what people argue though? Is that like if God were to think that something was wrong, his reveal of it being wrong would be to strike them down?

MichaelWell, what I mean is that I would say, generally speaking, we know stealing is bad, partially because when you look at societies that allow it, it thinks...

GavinI will say, I struggle to use words like good and bad.

MichaelSure, and if I was you, I would too, because you don't have an objective standard for those things.

GavinNo, not really.

MichaelBut I do, so for me it's fine to use them. But we can say that a society could see that stealing is not working, so we're going to just say don't do it. And all I'm saying is somebody might come back and say, well, I knew a guy who stole once and it worked out okay. And that's the exception to the rule that isn't relevant.

GavinWould people say that's an exception to the rule?

MichaelWell, it would be an exception to my rule. I'm not saying stealing always doesn't seem to temporarily work out in a person's life. I'm sure there's people who've stolen something and never got caught, is all I'm saying. But there's the guilt component that we all end up feeling if we have a conscience, because God has given us a conscience. He's written His law on the heart of man in such a way that we actually know, right from wrong, Somewhat innately.

GavinSo you think that if somebody is locked in a box, that if they got out of the box and started taking candy bars, that they would feel just as much guilt versus the child who's been raised to see this as, you do this, and then this happens, or you do this, and this happens, you do this, you know, mom feels bad, you do this, dad feels bad. Or, like, it results in that. I would argue that I feel like most of that is not nature but nurture.

MichaelI would agree that different people in different societies, cultures, and even individual homes, neighbors, the kids could grow up with totally different senses of conscience because of knowledge. That's what conscience is. It's with knowledge. That's what the word means.

GavinSo then how can it be something that's written into the code if it's something that's taught?

MichaelBecause we're sinners, it's broken. And so you have people who, you know, that was what the whole jury trial just was about this Lindsay Clancy lady, right? Did you watch any of the coverage?

GavinI'm not up to date.

MichaelShe's a lady who murdered three of her children, admitted it. She's dead to rights guilty of actually killing them. The murder trial was whether she was of such a sound mind that she knew what she was doing at the time. That's what the trial was about. So the argument wasn't whether she did it or not. The argument that people were making was she didn't know exactly what she was doing. And I'll agree that throughout society there's people that aren't as aware of the bad things they're doing as other people.

GavinI don't even think it's like you even saying the word like like a word such as awareness is already implying a bias of like this is something that is already innately but I still like I don't know that that's necessarily innately built in. I think anybody can use your argument.

MichaelFrom your perspective, it's not built in, right?

GavinSure.

MichaelBecause we're tigers.

GavinI mean, yeah, but where is the written thing into our conscience? Couldn't I just say that it's naturally written in the world? I don't know. Like, any kind of example of, I think everybody should like the color blue.

MichaelYeah, and I agree, it's broken.

GavinBecause if everybody liked the color blue, then we would have less arguments over what's the better color.

MichaelYeah, but the point is, is our consciences are broken because our hearts are sinful. We have sinful hearts, and so we are people who take what we know is true from God, and we twist it for our own means to justify our own sin. And that's what God says about us. And so we end up making up our own laws instead of following his. That's why he gave them to us in writing. That's why we have the Ten Commandments, for example, so we can have in writing what's right and wrong. And there's a whole Bible that describes all of the requirements of these commandments and what's forbidden in them, so we can know when we're right or wrong. And so what I want you to understand is that the feeling that you get sometimes of guilt, it's a feeling God wants you to experience. He wants you to feel the shame of knowing you've broken his law and that you're guilty in his sight so that you would seek his Savior, Jesus Christ.

GavinSo if something you do that is breaking God's law, you then feel guilt means that is evidence of some kind or that means something.

MichaelIt's meant to lead you, yeah.

GavinWhat if you don't break some kind of commitment? In fact, it kind of goes, you feeling bad about this goes against.

MichaelYeah.

GavinThen, would that, so then guilt, it seems, would not be, it seems like a lot of the things in the Bible are things that society already predisposes to be bad. So, I still don't see how this is any evidence at all.

MichaelWell, I'm not claiming it as evidence. I'm claiming it as propositional truth. Just the fact that God has made a law. He's given us enough evidence to have some idea when we're off. We've broken ourselves, so we don't even always get it right. Right. Sometimes we feel the sense of guilt when we didn't do anything wrong because of societal misunderstandings. Sometimes we don't feel guilty when we've done something wrong, like this woman who killed her children, for example. And what I'm saying is that we have an objective standard, though, in God's Word. And His Ten Commandments tell us we shouldn't blaspheme His name, we shouldn't have idols, we don't murder.

GavinThat's the end thing that you've met. But where's my jumping off point where you're grabbing me here?

MichaelWell, I'm telling you that you have to stand before God one day. And he's going to hold you accountable for the fact that you did know things you've done wrong.

GavinBut I've been told that my parents are religious. You know, I've been told this my whole life.

MichaelYeah, so you have even more knowledge than others.

GavinI change.

MichaelWhat do you mean, why would you change?

GavinBecause I have all the knowledge.

MichaelYeah, you need to turn from your sin and trust Christ.

GavinI don't think I sin.

MichaelYou don't think you sin?

GavinI don't think I sin under my own. Morals.

MichaelI can give you the... I'm not quite sure what you're looking for. I can give you the information. And I can tell you, you know, God is love. Here, you know, God is love. He sent His Son because He wanted to redeem people from their sin. You're a sinner. You're hopelessly stuck in it. Your only opportunity is to cling to Christ, the only anchor in a storm. The only one who always lived the perfect life God approves of. So your only hope is to cry out to him for salvation. To ask him, forgive me, because I've sinned against you. Even if I don't know what all my sins are, Lord, forgive me of all of them. He knows.

GavinBut, okay. I feel like there could be somebody else here that was standing here that did not follow this God, that followed a different God. And they could hold a sign in front of me That said, eating pigs goes against gods, like whatever.

MichaelOkay, yep, I get it.

GavinAnd if I came here and I wanted to be open, if I just, if I took...

MichaelWhat sets mine apart from theirs, you're saying?

GavinYeah, and so far, I feel like I've given a good look a lot. I just don't see something that sets apart this religion from the other religions.

MichaelYeah, and this is what I would say is that I can't give you something. I can only tell you here's the propositional truth. God is and he has spoken to us. He's revealed the things I told you.

GavinThe other person would say that too.

MichaelYes, and it's up to you to believe the one right God that there is. And I can't change your heart on it. From your perspective, these are all equal things that you're trying to judge.

GavinAll religions do say these lists of things. They would say that guilt is a sign from God of a written conscience. They would all say this.

MichaelBut only one has Jesus dying for your sins and raising again so that you could have new life.

GavinBut then the other person would say, but then this one only has Ganesha that sits on the throne of...

MichaelSure.

GavinLike, why does this mean more than that one?

MichaelIt's as simple as if I said 2 plus 2 is 4.

GavinBut how is it as simple? 2 plus 2 is 4 is provable.

MichaelIt's not provable, it's actually axiomatic.

GavinI mean, but like, how we define it...

MichaelThat's the definition of 2 plus 2, it's 4. I'm saying the definition of who...

GavinIf you wanted to say that 3 plus 3... The point is, you break it down to... Like, there are proofs in mathematics that are...

MichaelThere are axioms that we hold to be self-evident, and I'm saying...

GavinBut they are... It's so hard to prove things in math for the... Certainly for the things that you're talking about here, but they are absolutely proved. Like, as they work within the rules...

Michael2 plus 2 is basically irreducible, is my point. It's just a fact in at least the form of mathematics that we're most familiar with.

GavinSo then how is this...

MichaelSo I'm saying, I'm just proclaiming who Jesus really is. The fact that you're not seeing it isn't my problem. It's not a problem for arguing.

GavinNo, but you're the one with the sign.

MichaelIt's something that...

GavinI'm just giving you where I'm at.

MichaelOh, no, I hear you. I totally get what you're saying. But it's like if I told you President of the United States was Trump...

GavinBut is that just your one job here, then? To just tell what... Is it just to tell or to convince? Well... If it's not to convince, then...

MichaelI would love to persuade you, But I believe that things that are spiritual are spiritually discerned, and that only God can open your eyes to truly understand these things, and that he works through the preaching or the sharing of his truth with people to do that. So my job is the messenger to say, the great king is coming back. This is what he did. Make peace with him today. And whether you acknowledge that or not, it doesn't change the fact of it for me.

GavinYou can see, I'm not trying to change your mind.

MichaelNo, sure, but I can see that... I think it's completely... But I believe the great king has the power, spiritually, to actually overcome your hard heart and give you a heart of flesh, and to open your eyes to these truths. So yes, in a sense, I'm not here to persuade you to something...

GavinI would be just as me, me, just as me if I did choose to follow a religion. I truly don't think that I could. I don't know, when I was a child, I would convince myself every single day that I believed in a God. And I don't feel more myself, I didn't feel more myself then than I do now. And in fact, I feel more, I feel like I feel more myself now as I've accepted my view, my lens. I'm sure you would think something very differently of my perception of my own.

MichaelI think that we do know about right and wrong, even if you don't philosophically go with the words. You have a concept of it that is way beyond what turkeys and dogs and tigers have. And I tried to appeal to the fact that there's kind of a sense that we know that. And then I told you about God's law and about His grace in Christ. And I guess I just trust that He has the power to kind of deal with the details with you from now on. But I'd be happy to help you with more questions. But I'm not in the business of trying to convince the unconvinced of things, because I'm rather certain that I don't have the power to do that, I guess. Now, I would, if you ask me... So, if you ask me a question like, how did all the animals fit out of the ark? You know, if you had honest questions about the Bible that you wanted me to help with, I'd be happy to do what's called apologetics, or tell you why Ganesha isn't really a god, or why even, you know, why praying to Ganesha would be idolatry. I could explain it from a Christian perspective, but just on the basis of trying to, you know, get you in, I trust God to take care of you.

GavinWere you brought up religious or did you find God later?

MichaelI was brought up what I call Republican. So my family was Roman Catholic, but for us being basically good Republicans was kind of what we did.

GavinThat is actually quite similar. That's probably a better wording. I think I might steal that.

MichaelSo yeah, that's what I learned. And my family wasn't a big family on talking about God. My parents would have acknowledged He existed, and He gave us a pretty sunset.

GavinWow, this is actually a very similar story.

MichaelAnd I was just Catholic enough that I went to a Catholic university. And while I was at the university, I was about 20 years old, And I was going to Mass on Sunday mornings and I was partying. I mean, I partied four nights a week in college. And I was sitting in Catholic Mass one time and I was saying the prayers and I was doing all the things you're supposed to do. I don't know how much you know about Catholics. There's like a lot of forms you go through and in a sense, I'm simplifying things, you're earning forgiveness from God. And I stood there and I was acknowledging in my mind one morning that I absolutely loved all the things that I had been doing the night before that I was supposed to be repenting of. And I thought, I thought if God's real, then he knows I'm not really sorry for anything I did. I love the part. And so I decided that any God that I could trick by just eating the bread and doing whatever motions they had me do, I just decided he's not really God anyway.

GavinWow. I feel like that's very rare.

MichaelSo I walked away from Roman Catholicism and anything labeled Christianity at that point. And then I spent the next 10 years investigating things like dream catching. I read these things about how to get control in your dreams and do all this psychedelic type stuff. I got into these books called the Celestine Prophecy and all these real uber spiritual things. I got into yoga and the real spirituality behind it, things like that.

GavinOnce you know, I hear a lot of stories. It's a very rare one. It's super interesting.

MichaelWell, thanks. And I got into, I did a lot of drinking, ended up having to quit drinking because of the problems it caused. And I joined a program called AA, where I met a lot of people that helped me grow up.

GavinUsually the thing with AA is like they usually connect it to God, right?

MichaelThey connect it to a higher power. And actually, where I lived, it was very dismissive of Jesus. So I liked AA because I hated Jesus. So I got into witchcraft. I had a lot of friends in a lot of different things in AA.

GavinAnd witchcraft? What does witchcraft mean for you?

MichaelYep, a lot of lesbians and gays and just anything, anything was fine for me. And when I was 30 years old, I was going through a divorce and I was really hurt. And some Christians helped me and they just kept telling me, your only hope is Jesus. And I complained and they'd say, you need Jesus. And I complained and I just kept trying to talk about my wife and my relationship. All they'd say is, you really need to trust Jesus. And it was like...

GavinYou're like, pink elephant, pink elephant, pink elephant. And they're like, think of the brown elephant.

MichaelYeah, I hated what they were saying, but they were kind. And so I was like, you know... One of the guys was like my best friend for years. He had just kind of gotten back into church, so I was tolerating that. And then I picked up a Bible for myself midway through my 30th year, or 31st, I guess. I was 30, and I just started reading it for myself with the intention that I was going to find the problems so I could go and teach the Christians what was wrong so they would stop following a lie. Because I thought they were really great people, but I felt bad for them that their life was being wasted.

GavinSo you did come from probably a like mind.

MichaelNot too dissimilar, yeah. And I just thought this was a waste of time. But in my heart I thought, I love these people, I wanted to help them. So I started reading the Bible, and the saying goes, I read the Bible to judge it, and it judged me. And after a few days, actually, of reading the Bible and praying, I prayed to Jesus. I said, Jesus, if you're God, open my eyes. I'm not seeing it. And I thought, I can't hurt. If he's not God, he's not going to answer. And if he is, then I need to know. And I prayed that prayer for about a week. And then one night, you know, details aren't that important. One night, I just came to believe like he really was God. He died for my sins. And then the next morning, I woke up and I believed the same thing. And I asked Him if He... I said, God, will you let me in heaven because of Jesus? I didn't have a conscience left. I didn't know what sin was. I didn't know all the bad stuff I did. I had no idea how bad it was. I just knew I needed forgiveness. I didn't even know for what. And ever since that day, he's just been slowly changing me, making me love people more, making me want to tell people about him. And I just, it's what I do. Thanks for asking. Nobody's ever, like, really asked me in this context before. Gavin, right?

GavinI'm sorry, I missed your name.

MichaelMy name's Michael.

GavinI didn't miss your name. I had Michael in my head and I was like, it's probably like Eric or something and I messed up.

MichaelWell, if you go to those websites, you can contact me. We can discuss all this further. If you have questions, if you want to debate.

GavinI was going to say, I do have to, I teach drums.

MichaelOh, cool.

GavinThose could mean.