When Does a Person Begin?

MichaelYou agree with what?

AlexI agree on abortion up to the first trimester.

MichaelSo you think it should be legal up to like 12 or 13 weeks?

AlexLower than that.

MichaelHow low?

AlexLike 8.

Michael8 weeks?

AlexYeah.

MichaelOkay, so why do you think that then?

AlexBecause I think a woman should have full bodily autonomy.

MichaelUp to 8 weeks?

AlexYeah.

MichaelSo why not at 9 weeks?

AlexBecause I think it's when the baby starts to get a, I think they start to get a heartbeat, I'm pretty sure.

MichaelOkay, that's about five or six weeks.

AlexYeah, so I'm right around that range.

MichaelSo you think when the baby gets a heartbeat, the bodily autonomy is just out the window, you've got to take care of this kid?

AlexI'd say that.

MichaelYes?

AlexYeah.

MichaelOkay, but before that, even though there's a life in there, she could kill that kid.

AlexYeah.

MichaelAnd you wouldn't call it murder.

AlexYeah.

MichaelOkay. So how do you decide, I guess, would be my question. Hi there.

LiamHello.

AlexHow would I decide?

MichaelLike if somebody called you and said, you know, because here's the thing, like you're going to have a guy on my side saying, hey man, it should start a conception. Okay. So I think you're five weeks too late. But actually, people that are for abortion would say, they would be against you too. They'd say, well, that's arbitrary. You can't start it then either. So how do you justify that belief without being arbitrary?

AlexWhat do you mean?

MichaelLike, you're saying that when the baby gets a heartbeat at about five or six weeks, now the woman can't kill You're the baby. basically saying she loses the bodily autonomy. So how do you decide to take it away at that point? I'm all for the fact that she shouldn't be allowed to kill a I baby. just think she should never be allowed.

AlexThere's a moment of development where it's developed too far until it becomes like an actual, real, functional human.

MichaelOkay, so based on how functional that person is?

AlexYeah, because it's not a zygote anymore.

MichaelOkay, so because of their stage of development. What about a person that's in a coma who's not really functioning? Should we be able to kill them, you They're think? kind of a drain. So should we be able to kill them? They're kind of of draining resources, like they're taking up a hospital bed, right? Like, they're probably, in a sense, bothering more people than the baby in the mom's womb, right?

AlexLike you said,

Michaelyeah. Do you think we should be able to kill them?

AlexThey have the ability to gain consciousness.

MichaelDo you mean somebody like, like they previously had consciousness? Previously had, that gives them more value then?

AlexYeah.

MichaelOkay, what about you? What do you think?

LiamI'm just kind of confused, so...

MichaelConfused?

LiamYes.

MichaelWhat are you confused about?

LiamI mean, it's not really a baby or alive, really, until it gets out of the womb, in the stomach, even though it can develop whatever along going on the way. I think it should be able to be terminated whenever still. That's fine. Or it shouldn't be murder, because you're not really murdering someone yet. It's not a person yet. You cannot think. It's not a thing yet. It's still developing.

MichaelOkay, so it's developing what? What is it?

LiamIt's slowly developing to a person, but it's not there yet.

MichaelIs it human?

LiamIt's not human yet.

MichaelSo would you say that about a puppy? Like is a puppy embryo a dog embryo, or is it just a...

LiamThat's a baby. That's already birthed.

MichaelNo, no, an embryo puppy that's still in its mother.

LiamStill in its mother.

MichaelDo you believe that's a dog?

LiamI believe it's the blueprints still to make a dog, and it's progressing to be a dog, but it's not a dog until it comes out.

MichaelSo you think that 10 minutes before a baby's born, it's fundamentally something different than 10 seconds after it comes out?

LiamExactly.

MichaelOkay. You're not a science major or something, are you?

LiamI'm an engineer.

MichaelOkay. Well, that's good then. At least you're not going to be a doctor or something. That's really irrational. So you're arbitrary, right? Take away her autonomy at Have six weeks. you paid for an abortion? Have you gotten someone pregnant and had an abortion?

LiamI have not even had sex yet.

MichaelOkay. Usually people don't feel so strongly about a human baby being allowed to be terminated. It's not a baby to abuse the person. What magically happens then?

LiamIt's birthed. It's why it's given a birthday.

MichaelIt's given a birthday because that's the day it was born, yes. Just like a graduation day is the day you graduated, right? Yeah. Were you a completely different being before You don't graduate that?

Liamuntil you graduate.

MichaelThat's true. You're not born until you're born. But that doesn't mean you're not a human, right? I think you need to think about this a little bit more. I don't even...

LiamI think you're taking it away from the person that already exists, the mother.

MichaelWell, no, both people exist. They're just in different stages of development.

AlexDo you think abortion should be illegal?

MichaelIllegal, did you say? Yeah. Yeah, I think it should be completely illegal. In fact, I think it already is illegal because murder is illegal. And so what we have is we have conflicting laws now where some laws are permitting murder under certain circumstances, sort of like when people were allowed to own slaves. Those human beings were never actually someone's property because you can't own another human. You shouldn't steal another human. But we had laws that allowed it. And so we had to make it illegal so that people would then have to suffer penalties so they'd stop So making doing it illegal it.

Alexis not stopping the abortion?

MichaelNo, we need to make abortion illegal.

AlexI know, so abortion, you just said abortion is Well, illegal.

MichaelI'm saying it's technically illegal because murder is already illegal.

AlexThat's not what I'm saying. If abortion is illegal, will that stop the abortion from happening?

MichaelI think if we made abortion illegal and we enforced the laws, it would work like every other law, where some people would still break it, and then we'd execute justice, and some people would not break People it.

Alexthat, countries that have legalized abortion, more abortion tends to happen.

MichaelWhere it's illegal? Yeah. I don't think so.

AlexBecause they still find workarounds, Oh, or they...

Michaelwell, some people will still do it, right?

AlexYeah, because people will start crossing into different countries and everything.

MichaelOh, sure, yeah. People will go to all sorts of extents to satisfy their lusts, right?

AlexAnd they can do an abortion themselves.

MichaelOh, yeah, and now they can do it legally. And I don't want to be part of a country that permits it. I want to be part of a country that says, we don't permit you to do evil. We'll prosecute you if you do evil, just like if someone did something evil to you right now. They're free to make that choice, but there's laws that will protect you and bring justice on that person afterwards. And so I'm not saying making abortion illegal will prevent it. Murder is illegal. People still get murdered, right? So the law is not there to prevent bad from happening. The law is there to tell people what's right and wrong so that they'll make a more informed choice. Actually, it will stop a lot of people.

Alexstop in America, but the people doing it will start to do it in other places.

MichaelThat'd be fantastic. Yeah, I hope it's really unsafe to commit crimes, frankly. I don't think there should be a safe place where you could rape a girl. I think it should be dangerous. If you tried to rape a girl, you should actually expect that she might pull out a gun and shoot you if you sexually assaulted her. I think it should be unsafe to commit crimes, especially violent crimes like abortion or Okay, rape.

Liambut if a girl gets raped and can't get rid of the baby.

MichaelOkay, if a girl gets raped and God gives her a baby as the result, what should we do, you think, in that situation?

LiamIt's up to her if she wants to keep it.

MichaelWhy don't you start with what should be done? Why don't you start with what should be done? Who should pay a penalty if a rape occurs, do you think?

LiamIt should be the rapist.

MichaelOkay, so let's start there. Rapists should be paying a penalty, right? So can we all agree on that? That's fair. Because I know we like to bring up the rape exception. A lot of people do this. They bring up, what if she's raped? You've already said you're all for abortion in any case, up to the point of like five minutes before birth, all right? So, I don't actually take it seriously that you're bringing up a rape exception, but what I'd say is no. If you get raped, you do not have the right to murder someone else. In fact, you should be, of all people, most compassionate towards not doing violence to another innocent person. Rape victims should be the most empathetic for unborn children, Because they should also want other people not to be victimized by having violence done to them. So I realize if someone gets raped, they may unexpectedly have a baby they didn't want. It doesn't justify murdering them. But I do believe that as a society, especially maybe outside of government, as a church, we should be doing things to help people that are victims of these kinds of violent crimes. I think we should have...

AlexWhat church? Catholic?

MichaelThe Catholic Church certainly should do things for people, but I'm not part of the Catholic Church. I'm Protestant.

AlexSo you don't believe that the Eucharist... Is Jesus actually in the Eucharist?

MichaelI believe that he is not transubstantiated in the Eucharist, yes. I don't believe that when a priest says hocus pocus, which is the Latin, I don't believe that the bread actually becomes the physical body of So Jesus.

Alexyou think the Apostle Paul and his followers, or the apostles of Apostle Paul were lying?

MichaelI don't think they were lying, no.

AlexBut they blessed it so it can transubstantiate.

MichaelYou'd have to show me the scripture that you think shows that.

AlexI mean, You it's...

Michaelknow, 1 Corinthians 11...

AlexIf you don't drink my body and my blood, you have no life in you.

MichaelYeah, Jesus said that, that's right. And he was speaking spiritually, that's in John chapter 6. And if you go to the end of John 6, Jesus proclaims that the spirit is that which gives life and the flesh can do nothing. And he shows throughout the chapter, actually, by his, I think, sarcastic comments toward the Pharisees of the time, that they're taking him literally, which is what they were doing. He mocked them for that. And then Roman Catholics come along and do the same thing.

AlexSo Paul was blind when he starts doing these traditions.

MichaelNo, I think the Apostle Paul did a great job, and he said that we do this in memory of him. He received from the Lord directly what the Lord had given to the other Apostles. I know you, it sounds like you don't. Yeah, I understand there's a difference of opinion on the Eucharist, so I'm not...

AlexThis is my body and my blood.

MichaelSo are you a Catholic then? You're Episcopalian? You believe in transubstantiation?

AlexI'm going to transfer to Roman Catholicism.

MichaelOkay, so you're going to go from Episcopalianism to Roman Catholicism, and you're going to join Roman Catholicism with the belief that women should be allowed to terminate their children as long as the child doesn't have a heartbeat.

AlexThey already did a poll that a majority of Catholics believe in abortion.

MichaelOkay.

AlexIt's not a Roman Catholic poll.

MichaelI guess it's a fair spot for you then. I don't know. I'm not a Catholic. I was a Catholic until I was about 20, and I just reject Do you believe Do that you believe in in God?

AlexGod now. through grace?

MichaelYes.

AlexWhy do you believe that?

MichaelBecause the Bible teaches that we're totally depraved, that we have no good of our own, that even the best works we do are unrighteous in God's sight, and so it is by grace saved you're through faith, and it's not of Can yourselves. I bring up a verse? Yeah, you can bring up a verse. I understand that there's some confusion there. What's your name?

LiamMy name's Liam.

MichaelYes. Liam? Good to meet you, bud. What's your name?

AlexAlex.

MichaelAlex? I'm Michael, by the way. Good to talk to you guys. What kind of engineer do you want to be?

LiamTechnical engineer.

MichaelTechnical? What does that mean?

LiamIt's going to be essentially advanced IT.

MichaelOh, IT stuff. Okay, so that's the same that I do. I'm not a... Do you have a religious background at all?

LiamAntagonistic.

MichaelAntagonistic?

LiamThere might be something, but...

MichaelBut you're against it. You're against it, whatever it is.

LiamI think it's more of a force. Like gravity, like something else, if there is to be a God.

MichaelAn impersonal force.

LiamNot person. More like gravity or a law of physics. If there were to be a God. But it doesn't directly correlate over to anyone.

MichaelKind of like Star Wars?

LiamMaybe. I don't know.

MichaelIs that a fair comparison? Or is there a better...

LiamThat could be a fair comparison.

MichaelWell, there is a personal God, and I think you know there is one. And what God says in the Bible is that you know that He exists, and you've been seeing His wisdom, power, and goodness. So when you look at your engineering formulas, when you do Calc 1, 2, and 3, and you see all these really kind of amazing things that He's built into all the details of nature, you're actually seeing His handiwork, and He's given you enough evidence of His wisdom, power, And because you've seen thunderstorms and lightning and destruction at mass scales as well, you know about his wrath against unrighteousness. And so you don't have any excuse for saying you don't believe in him. You suppress the truth that you know about him in unrighteousness, the Bible says. So because you love your sin, you make up things to say there's no God, or God is something other than what he is, which is kind of the same as saying there's no God. But God did for sinners like you and like me as he sent his son Jesus into the world. Do you know about Him? Can you tell me what He did?

LiamThere are stories about things that He did that helped teach. We did not know the science behind some of the things. However, we have now known how many things happened. We know how many things happened.

MichaelDo you believe Julius Caesar existed?

LiamYes, maybe.

MichaelIt's true. Yeah, you believe Julius Caesar based on a handful of documents that describe his life. Jesus' life is testified by like 3,000 times as many documents that are 1,200 years closer to his existence than Julius Caesar. You believe what you want to believe about history and you deny what you want to deny because it forces you to have to make a decision. Jesus certainly walked the earth. He performed miracles. And he did everything that his father commanded him to do. And he died on the cross for sinners like you and me. And he rose again three days later, something you have no hope of being able to do for yourself or anyone. And he commands you to turn from your sin. Hold on real quick. He commands you to turn from your sin and even your identity as a sinner and to trust him as your Savior. And that's called the gospel. It's the good news that we can be forgiven of our antagonistic beliefs. Does that make sense? Yes. I know you don't believe it, but it's true, whether you believe it or not. And I want you to be willing to be open-minded about it. Back to you. What were you saying?

AlexIt says, you see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by what they do not.

MichaelYeah. That's right. In James chapter 2, verses 24 and 25 and 26, it says that, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's a Catholic's favorite verse. Did you know that? Yeah. So the Bible teaches that when you have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, that it's absolutely essential for you to demonstrate that you have faith by doing good works. So by obeying what God has said is right and wrong. For example, standing up for the voiceless, people who can't speak for themselves, and loving little children more than yourself, and standing up for people who are being aborted. Something you're unwilling to do. So what I'm saying is that...

AlexSo you're saying if you have faith in No, God...

Michaelit was an example. It wasn't ad hominem. So you're saying... No, you know what ad hominem means? When you attack a person rather than the argument. I was showing by your own actions that you don't believe what you're saying. Because you won't stand up for the voiceless, a command of God, it shows that you don't actually have faith. Go ahead.

Alexfaith, you will do these works.

Michaelyeah, but those works aren't the basis of your justification in the eyes of God. The righteousness of Christ is the only acceptable righteousness to God for justification, is what I would say. Whereas Catholics mix sanctification Sanctification and justification into one thing. And I separate them logically.

AlexOkay, so he's saying you can have faith, right? Who is?

MichaelJames?

AlexYeah, he's saying you can have faith, right?

MichaelYou can say you have faith, James is saying, but if you're not demonstrating your faith by loving other people, if you're not showing it through works, he's saying I'm not even going to believe you have faith in the first So place.

Alexyou're just saying if you have faith, you're going to have works.

MichaelYes. Faith is the root, and then the works are the fruit.

AlexI know, they go together.

MichaelWhereas in the Catholic tradition, it's your works...

AlexI don't believe in faith alone, though.

MichaelFor justification, yeah.

AlexSo are you saved through faith alone?

MichaelSaved through faith alone, yeah. I'm justified by Christ's works, not mine. But my works are what I demonstrate that I And believe. it's not the basis by which God is going to judge me, though. He's going to judge me based on his son's works.

AlexBut he's saying you can have faith and you can't be saved. You can believe in me. You can have faith that Jesus lived, right?

MichaelYeah, demons believe. It says earlier in that chapter, demons believe in Jesus, that he's the Son Demons of God. don't do the work. They Yeah. don't worship him. Yeah, there's a way that you can believe truth about Jesus that doesn't actually demonstrate that you've truly rested in That's him.

Alexwhy the works also lead to you getting saved.

MichaelNow, the works don't lead to it. The works are the fruit of it, the result.

AlexBut the demons, they believe in Jesus. They have faith in him.

MichaelThey believe in the Savior. And so did Judas. Judas also had works. But he didn't have true faith.

AlexYeah, because he went against those works as well. He didn't, he didn't, um, he betrayed Jesus. That's not, that's having, not having good works.

MichaelThat's true. Peter betrayed Jesus too. And then Jesus still saved him. Because it's Jesus' righteousness that justifies It's it. not the sinner's righteousness. know I know it can sound confusing, but you need to be born again to understand these things. You need God to grant you, by faith, trust in His So, Son.

Alexfaith only means you won't say what others say?

MichaelThat's a phrase that some people use, yes. I don't phrase it that way. I think that phrase has gotten abused. I ascribe to something we call perseverance of the saints. It's the promise that once God has granted you his Holy Spirit as a seal of your redemption.

AlexJudas had no repentance. James had repentance. So you're just going to turn against those bad works. That's why Jesus saved them.

MichaelI don't see I it that way. see it as Jesus being the author and perfecter of the faith of Peter. And it's not Peter's works that It's did it. Jesus' works that saved Peter.

AlexIt's also Peter's works as well.

MichaelPeter's works demonstrated that God was really working through him and that the Holy Spirit was inseparably linked to Peter by his indwelling him, a gift from God, a deposit.

AlexAnd his faith in Jesus, which is linked to works, as you said, Peter, I mean, Peter would in turn turn against those bad works because of his good faith and know he needs to repent for those bad works to be saved. I just can't believe that apostles of the actual apostles who believe that the Eucharist is real...

Michaeldid you ever see one of the apostles say that, though?

AlexOne of the apostles?

Michaelmean, you just quoted Jesus with the this is my body thing, which, you You know, you think it's literal, I'm saying it's symbolic or spiritual.

AlexAm I quoting the apostles?

MichaelAnd you're quoting John, quoting Jesus. But could you tell me where an apostle said, oh, by the way, this is transubstantiation. So, Polycarp? Polycarp ascribed to transubstantiation?

AlexI'm pretty sure, yes, the first apostles. Because that's why Christians were being persecuted in this time, because they believed that it was truly the body. Yeah.

MichaelYeah.

AlexAnd they were getting persecuted by the Romans because of that, because they thought it was paganism. So I just can't believe that that. they died on...

MichaelI see what you're saying. So you're convinced that the early apostles and their apostles or their disciples, that they believed in transubstantiation the way you do in Catholicism They put together the Bible.

AlexThe apostles that came after.

Michaelthe early apostles. And I guess what I'm saying is I think they always would have known and that some things actually got developed over time. Obviously, there's been perversions of God's Word. There's been people who have said one thing and somebody else came along and said that's not what it means. There's been arguments in Christianity.

AlexThere's early Protestants as well, Lutherans, Anglicans, they still believe it's the, what else, even the original Protestants still believe that it's still the real body and blood and I need those two sacraments, the baptism and Yeah, the...

MichaelI believe it's truly his body and blood too. I'm just not taking it literally like you are. I also don't believe Jesus is a door, literally. Even though he said he's a door. I believe... When he said Yeah, he was a... when Jesus said he was a vine, I actually think he meant something that a vine represents.

AlexYou just go off your own interpretation because you're going to start twisting the Bible. That's why you need a church to guide you.

MichaelAnd I have a church to guide me. I have 2,000 years of church history guiding me.

AlexThat comes from the apostles of the apostles.

MichaelYeah, I just think that the ones that you think said one thing either didn't say it, or if they did, they were wrong.

AlexSo the apostle of, I think it's John?

MichaelYeah, like if you could find me a, thank you, if you could find a Polycarp quote where he, you know, clearly indicated. I agree that the language we use to describe communion could be misconstrued by others as literal. So when I say I take the body and blood of Christ on Sunday, I know what I mean, and I can see how somebody would think it's cannibalism. Where are you from?

LiamDelaware.

MichaelOkay. Ohio? Yeah. Yeah. Figured. But how about you? Same thing. Oh, all right. Do you guys know each other?

AlexIgnatius of Antioch.

MichaelOkay.

AlexAD 107.

MichaelYeah, what did he say? Smyrnaeans.

AlexI think he's the first bishop ever. Justin, Martyr. He's the first document we have.

MichaelYeah, I'd have to read exactly what they wrote.

AlexPolycarp, direct disciple of Apostle John.

MichaelYeah, I'd have to read what they actually wrote in apparently probably It's Latin. now been translated to try to figure out what it is they were saying and what they must have meant.

AlexIgnatius of Antioch said to the letter to the Smyrnaeans, abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they refuse to acknowledge that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Lord and Savior Christ.

MichaelOkay. Well, there you go, bud. You can stake your salvation on that. I'll stake mine on what Christ said.

LiamI don't know.

MichaelWas that John? No, you're not John. What's your name? Aiden. Aiden. You see it, bud. Remember me? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not an expert in what all these guys wrote. So I can see how it can be confusing and moderately attractive to think you're going back to what original people thought.

AlexThis is Apostle John's, like, he was the teacher of Apostle John.

MichaelYeah, I'm not disagreeing with you that it's attractive to see what original apostles and their disciples said and to actually glean from that. I'm not saying that would be something I wouldn't personally also want to do.

AlexAt the time, I'm pretty sure John was 11.

MichaelYeah, no, I'm not saying it's a terrible way to go about it. I'm just not convinced right now that that's what they said. I'd have to read it, like take my time to understand in context what they were trying to communicate, what the reason was. Because I agree that we use phrases like this is the body and blood of Jesus. I used that phrase when I was a pastor. And I did not mean what somebody listening may have thought I meant. So making sure I understood what they meant would be one thing.

AlexI'm just saying like, this guy, he's like an apostle of John or whatever, and he's like telling people not to come because they don't think it's his actual body.

Michaelnot treating it like his body, which is what we're supposed He's not treating it like his body, it's the same thing.

AlexI don't know about that.

Michaelthey're just treating it like a bare memorial. Because I don't think it's a bare memorial. So there's a middle ground between it's corporally... No, we don't. I agree with that. Like, that's the thing, is like, I agree that it's not ordinary food, the way we receive it.

AlexLike the Orthodox Catholics, they've been doing these traditions since 33 A.D.

MichaelYeah, Catholics have their traditions, I'll agree with you.

AlexAnd I think it's directly to the original, to his original teachings.

MichaelHere's the thing, if the Catholic Church got a bunch of things right and not a bunch of things wrong, and the only difference I had with them was an argument over the nature of the body and blood in the Eucharist, I might be able to say, okay, I'd be persuaded. But they have so much wrong about so many things that that's just one symptom.

AlexLike what?

MichaelWell, salvation by grace through faith alone, the veneration or worship of images and icons, praying to saints, praying to Mary, calling Mary a mediatrix.

AlexI mean, intercession is It in the Bible. was practiced.

MichaelIntercession.

AlexThere was intercession being practiced.

MichaelThrough the dead has never been warranted by God. In fact, God says, do not communicate with the dead. It's a law of God. And it's irrational at best. It's idolatrous and sinful at worst. We have one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. So there's just too many errors, right? That's why I can still look at a Lutheran that I think gets the Eucharist wrong.

AlexWhat's the last book of the Bible? Revelation. Yeah, in Revelations, there's saints with a pile of prayers giving to God.

MichaelYep.

AlexSo, I think saints pray with you. I don't think they...

MichaelHow so? Yeah, like, which saint right now has omniscience enough to be knowing what you're doing? Watching you?

AlexI mean, they don't have omniscience.

MichaelHow do they know when you're praying? How do they hear Because you?

Alexyou ask for their intercession.

MichaelHow do they get access to you? Are they just watching you in the shower? When are they watching when they're hearing you? Like it's irrational.

AlexYou ask for their intercession for them to pray with you to God.

MichaelSo you ask God, and you're saying God is then granting them access to you?

AlexI guess you can think of it that way.

MichaelI mean, you have to make up something to explain the fact that this finite creature who's not omniscient hears your prayers or your requests for prayer.

AlexI mean, omniscient means everywhere all at once.

MichaelNo, that means knowing all things. Omnipresent means everywhere all at once.

AlexSo, knowing all things, right?

MichaelHow does St. Christopher know when you want his help?

AlexBecause you let them know.

MichaelHow does he find out?

AlexI don't know.

MichaelWell, how? It's... I mean, this is crazy, dude. If you said you asked me for help, but I wasn't in the room with you and I couldn't God's hear you...

Alexnot in the room with us. How do you know He is?

MichaelGod knows everything. He knows your thoughts. He sees all. He knows all. He hears all. God's everywhere.

AlexGod is granting these saints access to us.

MichaelThat's what I'm asking. How does this occur? How does St. Christopher all of a sudden hear Alex's thoughts? I mean, it's totally irrational. And you're okay with it. Like, it's one thing to believe in mystery.

AlexThe Apostle is talking about it because there was literally people interceding with saints. No. Found in Look, like...

Michaelman, you lost this Like, one. I got Like, you. the Eucharist is a tough one. I get there's a language thing there, but this is just irrational. What's your major?

AlexPsychology.

MichaelOh, that's horrible.

AlexI mean, Wait, I...

MichaelI'd that's horrific.

Alexsay economics more.

MichaelOkay, economics is better. Stay out of psychology. What a waste of time.

AlexI mean, I'm not going into psych. I'm going into a graduate.

MichaelTo do what?

AlexOccupational therapist.

MichaelFor psychology stuff?

AlexNo, you can get any degree.

MichaelOh, and then just go be like a, basically a physical therapist? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, what a waste. Like, here's one thing for me and you to disagree on, Christianity, Catholicism, whatever.

AlexI mean, I don't think any job should be a waste, because I think we should all make a livable wage.

MichaelIf you have a job that contradicts the truth of God, like psychology, then that's a huge problem.

AlexContradict the truth of God.

MichaelWell, psychology teaches a different state that man is actually in than what the Bible teaches. What do you mean? Well, psychology wouldn't teach that man is by nature sinful in Adam, that we're not born with original sin. So psychology would deny a core tenet of the Catholic Church. So my argument is I think you should leave Catholicism. We're not born with original sin? Psychology would teach that. Psychology would never acknowledge the possibility that you're born with original sin, and that the things you do wrong are because you're a sinful human being instead of because you're broken or environmentally affected.

AlexI mean, it's basically the same We're thing. broken basically through Adam.

MichaelNo, it's not. In one case, we're acknowledging the holiness of God in our need to be like Him or to be reconciled to Him if we're not. In the other case, we're saying we fundamentally are good, and the reason we do bad things is because Dad left when I was four. Neighbor guy touched me when I was a little boy, so now I'm sexual deviant.

AlexThe reason we do bad things is because of Adam. We inherit original sin.

MichaelYeah, psychology doesn't allow for that. It's a competing religion. It has a fundamental different view of man.

AlexHow original sin causes us to do bad things.

MichaelPsychology can help observe patterns of behavior. Psychology cannot explain why. When it attempts to, psychology becomes a religion. And as much as I want you to leave Roman Catholicism And be a Christian like I am, a Reformed Baptist. Psychology is another religion that I want you to stay You're away from. a Baptist?

AlexYeah. So you think people should choose to be baptized?

MichaelYeah, absolutely they should.

AlexI mean, I just don't understand because the earliest, earliest apostles were baptizing people in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit when they were children.

MichaelNo record of that.

AlexThe apostles of the early Do apostles.

Michaelyou have a record of anyone in the Bible doing that?

AlexI mean...

MichaelLike, you keep referring to people who aren't God.

AlexYou expect people to interpret the Bible like you literally... People would think a door is a door.

MichaelBut I actually believe that the history is on my side, that early Christians weren't doing what you're saying.

AlexWe're not going to go through your interpretation.

MichaelThat happened Do later.

Alexyou think a teacher of God is teaching his apostles that this is not the way?

MichaelNo, I don't think they were. No, I don't think you have a record of early baptisms of children.

AlexYou don't think I have a record of early baptisms with children from the apostles of the apostles?

MichaelYes. I don't think you do. You can look for it. Show me a picture of one of them. Surely there was somebody with a cell phone there that day. What do you think of all this? Watching a little intra-squad Christian debate? You're like, what are these guys doing?

LiamI think it's interesting. Drives you to do good.

MichaelDrives me, you think, or you?

LiamDrives anyone.

MichaelWhat do you think good is?

LiamSomething beneficial.

MichaelSo like how do you define beneficial when there's a conflict though?

LiamWhen there's a conflict?

MichaelLike me having your money right now would be beneficial to me in my mind.

AlexThe earliest reference to infant baptism comes from Irenaeus of Lyons. Yeah? Against Heresies.

MichaelYeah?

AlexIn 180.

MichaelI have to read that one. Is it a reference positively saying this is an ordinance of the church or is it just a reference?

AlexIt's him baptizing. I mean, he's a bishop and he's baptizing children.

MichaelOkay. Well, here's the thing. Presbyterians baptize children today and I disagree with them too, but I still think they're Christians. So I can disagree with Irenaeus.

AlexWhat's that? I don't like Calvinism.

MichaelOh, no. I'm sure you don't. Yeah. Because Calvinism forces you to have to face the fact that you're depraved before a holy God and your only hope is his mercy. You have to cast all your cares on him. And so you choose a religion where you've got a little bit of control, a little bit of self-righteousness, and you don't have to throw away all your pride. Calvinism forces you to have to say, I have nothing. Only the mercies of God.

AlexYeah, I used to be Presbyterian.

MichaelYeah? So you went from Christianity to somehow believing abortion is okay in some instances, to then justifying I'm that.

Alexnot that educated on abortion. I debate other things.

MichaelOkay, you're not that educated on it, is that what you're saying?

AlexNot at all.

MichaelOkay. Well, because I would say that if I met a Roman Catholic, as much as I may disagree on religious things, I would hope that they could say, according to Roman Catholic beliefs, I must oppose abortion as well.

AlexRoman Catholics are getting more liberal.

MichaelYeah, No, I know. that's why I would wonder. But you becoming more liberal shouldn't be the case.

PasserbyAmen.

MichaelThanks. What's your name? Edna. Have a good day, Edna.

AlexI'm far left myself.

MichaelYou're far left?

AlexCommunists, socialists.

MichaelOh, man. You're all over the world, man.

AlexI believe in Christian socialism.

MichaelChristian socialism? Yeah. How's that work?

AlexChristian principles in a communist society.

MichaelAgain, how does that work? Like they're antithetical belief systems. Christianity and communism.

AlexYeah, I think there should be more of a morality-based communism, so I think we should take that from Christianity.

MichaelOkay, so Christianity unashamedly teaches capitalism.

AlexWhere?

MichaelLike the Eighth Commandment, for example. Thou shalt not steal. It teaches property rights. It teaches that you should work to gain wealth and to have enough to share with others, Ephesians 4.

AlexAre you still doing things in personal property?

MichaelThat's not how communism works, Alex. How? Communism works by one group confiscating other people's property, and that's actually the socialism. The communism is when they do it by the threat of They force.

Alexdon't take each other's That's property.

Michaelwhat happens in every communal that's ever been created. Yes, that your wealth is your property. Your wealth is your property. You just said they don't take your property, they just take your wealth.

AlexThey take your wealth.

MichaelThey take your property. You can't redefine a term to make it not They property.

Alexgive you housing. I don't know why you want more than you already need.

MichaelWhy should you have what's mine?

AlexYou still have personal property.

MichaelNo, if you take what's mine, that's stealing.

AlexYour money that...

MichaelThat's not Christianity. You can't have a Christian communist. You're Why not? one or the other. You can't just make stuff up.

AlexIt's not making it up.

MichaelIt's like saying you want a dog cat.

AlexI pull up verses that support communism too.

MichaelYou cannot. You're Christianity. You cannot pull up a verse that supports it.

AlexYou think capitalism supports it?

MichaelAbsolutely. That's what Christianity teaches. Capitalism was born out of Christian people realizing...

AlexSo letting billions of people die, not giving people homes.

MichaelWho's supposed to give them homes?

AlexThe government.

MichaelChristianity doesn't teach us the government's job to give people homes.

AlexI mean, people should have, I mean, people are born into poverty and they should have the right to have equal opportunity as somebody who doesn't.

MichaelWhat do you mean? They should have a right? They should. Where do you get that from? You don't think people have the right to life? And you think they should be allowed to grow You're up?

Alexa capitalist and you're saying people, these people already don't have the right to life because they're already...

MichaelWait, you're saying people shouldn't be allowed to live if they're an inconvenience to some girl that had a party?

AlexNo, in communism I think everybody should live.

MichaelI think capitalism is... What you're saying is that in capitalism, people should be allowed to come and take the fruits of my labor?

AlexI mean, you're going to be well off. I mean, you're going to have housing.

MichaelNo. Every time it's been tried, it hasn't worked. Where? Everywhere it's ever been American tried.

Aleximperialism? They just assassinate them? Where didn't it work?

MichaelEverywhere it's been tried. There's been communes in the United States.

AlexWhat about Burkina Faso? Literacy rates shot up from 20 to 73 percent.

MichaelI don't know who these people They are.

Alexstarted growing their own crops and everything and stopped relying on these other...

MichaelBecause the government took money from other people and gave it to them?

AlexNo, the government did not give them money.

MichaelWell, that's what communism is.

AlexYeah, the government allocates resources instead of the people, instead of corporations.

MichaelGovernment's just a corporation. It's just functioning differently. Yeah, you can't have communism in Christianity. You can have your own version of communism where you kind of make up that it's going to work in your mind. You can't make a Christian version of Isn't it.

Alexit a part of the Christian principle?

MichaelNo, not at all.

AlexWhy not?

MichaelBecause it's just not. There's no why. It's just not what it's taught in Christianity.

AlexWhere?

MichaelLike in the Bible. The Bible just teaches that your job is to repent of your sin and glorify God with your life. That's your responsibility. Well, yeah, you sure can. And then you go to work, if you're a Christian, and you produce things, and you make things, and you then earn your wages, hopefully very fairly.

AlexYou don't earn a wage in communism.

MichaelI know. No, it's completely antithetical to the Eighth Commandment, so it cannot be Christian is what I'm saying. You can want it, and you can be thinking it's a really nice thing in your head, and a lot of college students I like don't think the you...

AlexThou shalt not steal is Yeah, just...

Michaela lot of college students think that. They think, ooh, this would be so nice, but you don't want communism.

AlexYou don't think having a home based on your needs is good? Like if you have three children, you'll probably have a four-bedroom house.

MichaelNo, I didn't say having a home isn't good. I don't think the government should confiscate your stuff to give me one. That's all I'm saying. When you go take a test, if your teacher gave everyone the same score, no matter how well you did on the test, what would you say?

AlexI mean, that's just not...

MichaelThat's communism. The fact that you don't understand it is indicative that... No, no, no, hold on, hold on, just a moment, hold on. Hold on, as polite as I can be, you need to shut your mouth. More and listen more. I just gave you a perfect analogy. You walk into a test. You do better than everyone else. They give you all the same score. And you don't see how They that...

Alexallocate you based on your needs in communism.

MichaelAnd your need, they decided, wasn't to get an A.

AlexUh, what?

MichaelYou don't believe in communism when it applies to And you. you're the one that's doing So well.

Alexin communism, it's where people get the same test? Like, what the hell are you talking about?

MichaelIt's an analogy.

AlexIt makes no sense.

MichaelThat's how he's acting. not understanding it. I'm being impatient with you, though. I'm sorry. The point The point is this, when I go to work, my employer or the people I'm selling to can give me what they want and I can give them what I want. I get to share my labor and my stuff.

AlexYou get to share 1% of your labor with the people. That's good.

MichaelI can do whatever I want, yeah, with my stuff.

AlexIt's crazy that a billion dollar corporation can give somebody a $15 wage per hour. People should be getting paid based on their labor.

MichaelThen they can just negotiate a higher wage.

AlexThey should be getting paid at least over $100 an hour.

MichaelOkay, so go pay them. Why aren't you paying I'm people?

Alexnot these billion dollar corporations that price gouge people.

MichaelWhat do you mean? Why doesn't another corporation just come and pay them better?

AlexBecause they can make more money by paying them less.

MichaelYou're not seeing the problem I here, are you?

Alexmean, that's just how a capitalist system operates. You're going to pay somebody less because you can make more money and you know you're going to get away with Yes, it.

Michaeljust like when you bought that sweatshirt, did you give the guy double what he asked for?

AlexI probably gave him seven times what it was produced for, eight times more what it was produced for, and that's messed up.

MichaelDid you give him double what he asked for? No, you paid as little as you could for the stuff you bought.

AlexYeah, Which but...

Michaelis exactly what a corporation's doing with the labor they're purchasing.

AlexYeah, and I think it's messed up that they can buy...

MichaelNo, you think it's messed up that other people are doing it and doing it well, and you're not.

AlexWhat do you mean?

MichaelYou're a capitalist when it comes to your So you're saying I should start my own own...

Alexcompany and stuff and like I should No, like...

MichaelI think if you want to spend more on something, spend more. If another guy doesn't, he has the freedom not to. So if I'm a corporation and people agree to work for me for $15 an hour, I pay them $15 an hour. If one of those people said pay me $30 instead, I have the choice to pay them $30.

AlexAnd that's still not enough, even $30.

MichaelWell, why don't you pay double for everything? Like, when you bought that sweatshirt, let's say it was $30, did you give the person who sold it to you $30 cash? Say, here, take this, I know they're stiffing you. I mean, that's illegal.

AlexThat's What? illegal.

MichaelWho cares if it's illegal? If it's right, do it.

AlexSo, give them $30?

MichaelYeah, you should be walking around to every underpaid person.

AlexIt's still not going to equal enough for their means of production. They're producing this company probably $1,000 a day and they're getting paid, what, $15 for it?

MichaelAnd you want to force the person who's earning the money at the top to give away more of it.

AlexJust taking away just billionaires' money because I don't think they need a billion dollars.

MichaelWho cares what you think?

AlexI mean, it's not right.

MichaelBut like, who cares?

AlexIsn't that stealing somebody else's money?

MichaelWait, for a person to have their own money and do what they want with it? That's not stealing. For you to want to take their money is stealing.

AlexBut price gouging people and wage slaving them?

MichaelPrice gouging isn't a thing. You charge people what you want to charge based on the availability of the product.

AlexSo a company buying something for super cheap and marking it up a ton because they can and get away with it?

MichaelWhy not? Don't buy it. What? If people weren't buying it...

AlexSo just don't buy food and stuff because, you know, they just get it for Yeah, like...

Michaelif people weren't Probably buying it...

Alex10 cents and the price gouges up to $5.

MichaelI get eggs where I want for less than what the store charges. Like, that's my choice. Okay. And I got to go to a separate place to get cheaper eggs, but nobody's stealing from me because they're selling eggs for what they want at Kroger's.

AlexI mean, that person on top stealing the person's wage.

MichaelStealing it? Yeah. So they're like making them work as slave labor without agreement, with no contract? I mean, comfortably in America, you need $95,000 to $130,000 per single person. Yeah, you're trying to solve a different problem the wrong way.

AlexWhat do you mean?

MichaelYou're trying to solve the problem that we have gross inflation.

AlexI just don't want wages being stolen, and that's against the Bible.

MichaelI would agree. If somebody was actually stealing wages, that's against the Bible.

AlexYeah, they should be getting paid for their means of production.

MichaelI agree that people should be getting paid, and they should agree what they want to get paid. We shouldn't have minimum wage. People should be allowed to work for whatever they want. What do you mean?

AlexBecause those are the only wages they can get.

MichaelNo, minimum wage actually keeps somebody that's willing to work for less from being able to make money.

AlexOkay, where else would you work for I'm more?

Michaelnot asking that. If minimum wage is 15, and I'm willing to work, okay.

AlexThere'd be no supermarkets at What all. Because all do you these mean? companies do it.

MichaelYou realize that minimum wage is what caused all this problem.

AlexWhat?

MichaelBy enforcing a minimum wage, we caused companies to make less money and then have to jack up their prices and make it more difficult. So if I wanted to work for $10 an hour, I can't do it. I don't have that freedom in the United States because minimum wage is above that.

AlexI don't know why you would want to make less. That sounds ridiculous.

MichaelWho cares why? If I want to, I should be allowed. And so your minimum wage law takes away my freedom.

AlexThat's just not realistic because somebody's not going to want to get less.

MichaelWhat do you mean? Why not?

AlexWell, if somebody wanted to live worse with a lower wage, that makes no sense.

MichaelNo, not a lower wage. I'm saying if I don't have a job and I'm willing to work for $10 an hour, I'm not allowed to make money for my family because my government has decided I can still go to work and start making money. I can get experience. I can start to save money. I can build my own thing. And I can work for whatever I agree with my employer on. I can find a good employer that treats me well.

AlexHe's going to give you what you should actually be making.

MichaelHe'll give me what he can afford to make that he's willing to I pay me.

Alexdon't see any private corporation paying somebody at least a supermarket over $50 an hour as a worker.

MichaelNo, it's not worth that much. But the problem is the problem isn't forcing...

AlexSo a worker producing a company, let's say $1,000 as a worker, They're right? making $1,000. You think they should be paid like $15 an hour?

MichaelI think they should be paid whatever the employer wants to pay I them. don't think you get to control what other people pay people. I agree.

AlexSo what's the problem? I think any job should...

MichaelThe The problem is I can't force another guy to pay you more. I know. No, I know that you think that. But I believe in freedom. I believe in freedom. I think we're boring Liam here, buddy. Who do you think won the debate on communism or Christianity? Yeah? Okay, so basically, trillionaires and billionaires are bad. They should be dead, okay. Okay, well?

AlexI mean, how's a billionaire helping you?

MichaelGive Giving me a job. Giving me a job.

AlexHow much do you make for your job?

MichaelI make a lot of money.

AlexHow much a year?

MichaelAs much as I want. As much as I agree to. In fact, just... I'm not going to tell you the details.

AlexI guarantee the guy at the top is price gouging the hell out of you.

MichaelI make a lot of money. There's people that are close to my level that make way more than

AlexHow much do you think you're making the company?

MichaelI don't know.

AlexDo you not get upset that you're making this company so much money, but you're getting paid like s---?

MichaelNo, because without the company, I wouldn't have the money. Because they're the ones doing all the other stuff that I don't have to do. So I don't mind. And also, I have the choice to get another job tomorrow. Did you know that?

AlexYeah, but you're still going to get paid.

MichaelIt's my choice. I could walk out today and say, you're not paying me enough.

AlexBut you're still going to get led to the same outcome. You're still not going to be paid for your labor at all.

MichaelI'm getting paid for my labor.

AlexDo you not get upset that you're making this company so much money?

MichaelNo, because I believe that I'm not to covet.

AlexWhat does that mean?

MichaelIt means I don't desire the things that God hasn't granted me righteously. So I have the salary I have.

AlexSo God granted Elon Musk righteously?

MichaelI'm not saying that Elon Musk or anybody else has earned all their money righteously. But that's a different problem. If a person's earning their money unrighteously, even if it's a small amount or a big amount, it's wrong. So I would agree that, for example, a lot of corporations... because they're using the government to try They try to control the market and they're cutting out people, they're creating monopolies or functional monopolies, they're getting subsidies for things that shouldn't be subsidized, and so they're getting an unfair advantage from You the government.

Alexsaid that you don't support people getting their money unethically and stuff?

MichaelYeah, I don't think people should, so I would agree that's always wrong.

AlexI think you not getting paid for your labor is unethical.

MichaelWell, I get paid what my boss has agreed with me that I'd get paid. And I'm free to leave if I don't like it. But it's not unethical that my boss pays me what I agreed to get paid.

Alexmean, I'd say it's unethical that you're making the company...

MichaelYou want my boss to be more charitable.

AlexNo, I want your boss to pay you what you deserve to be paid.

MichaelAnd you want to be the one that sets what that is.

AlexMe?

MichaelYou want to be the one that decides what's fair, not my boss. I mean, at least somebody other than my boss gets I mean, to pick.

Alexunder my ideology, I think that you should be given stuff based on your needs and what you want to know.

MichaelWell, I definitely make way more money than I need. So what do you propose people do with me? I got extra money at the end of every month. We're buying liquor and dumping it out, buddy. That's how much we got. What should you do with me, you think? What would a good government that Alex was running do? Other than murder children five weeks and younger, but go Probably ahead.

Alextake away everybody's wage, right?

MichaelTake away everybody's?

AlexYeah, and give. You Okay. can want things under communism, and they'll give it to you, right? Because you still have personal property.

MichaelYou know the Pilgrims tried that, right? What? The Pilgrims tried that when they came to the United States in 1620. What They did they do? tried communism. You know what happened? What? Half of them died. They weren't working because no matter how much more work they did than someone else, they didn't have any incentive to keep doing it because it didn't benefit them. It just made them more tired. And then after the second year...

AlexHaving everything you need isn't benefiting them?

MichaelIt didn't benefit them.

AlexAnd when you stopped working, you don't have anything?

MichaelBecause then people stopped working.

AlexYou can't stop working under communism.

MichaelWell, somebody did. Why? And then what happened is somebody instituted a merit-based system where they were able to receive wages based on how much more they produced. And now we have a country that actually is thriving because people want to produce. Now we're still thriving more than communist So countries.

Alexdo you believe Israel has a right to exist?

MichaelWhat do you mean by Israel?

AlexDo you think Israel has a right to exist? Should it be Palestine?

MichaelOkay, to answer your question, I'll say no, like philosophically. Nobody has a right to exist, like no country does.

AlexDo you think the war is a good idea?

MichaelWhich war?

AlexIsrael and Palestine?

MichaelI don't think any war is probably a good idea. I'm not pro-Israel, if that helps speed things I up. think Israel is a horribly wicked group of people. So, I've heard they've done some really horrendous things to the Palestinians, and I would be opposed to all of I that.

Alexthink the Marx ideology is the best ideology, and that's what I'm going based on.

MichaelGroucho Marx? I don't know, what? Groucho Marx?

AlexWhat's that?

MichaelOr Karl Marx? Oh, Karl. okay. I thought you meant Groucho. Harpo? Harpo Marx? Zeppo? The No. Marx Brothers?

AlexMarx and Engels.

MichaelYeah. It's been tried, buddy.

AlexWhere?

MichaelPilgrim Colony.

AlexThat was before Marx.

MichaelStill tried. Same concept.

AlexIt's not the same concept.

MichaelIt was tried in the early church in Jerusalem in Acts chapter 3 into Acts chapter 4. They brought all of their goods and laid them at the apostles' feet. Nobody had anything that was their own.

AlexBut under communism you have your own stuff still.

MichaelNo, because your stuff is always subject to be confiscated.

AlexHow?

MichaelBy whoever thinks somebody else needs it.

AlexThey wouldn't confiscate your needs.

MichaelOnce they think it's beyond your needs, it's not your stuff now, It's it's theirs.

Alexbeyond your needs, it shouldn't be given to you.

MichaelAnd it's not up to somebody else to decide what's beyond my needs.

AlexI just think that's selfish, and I think that makes you unrighteous.

MichaelWell, I think you're wrong about that.

AlexWhat's that?

MichaelIt's just not a standard of righteousness for somebody to want to be able to take care of themselves.

AlexI mean, you're taking care of yourself based on your needs. What you need and what you want, you can get, right? Why not? You can't get what you want under communism?

MichaelNope. You can't. It's not the way God designed it. It's as silly as just saying, like, we're going to go live in...

AlexIt's just switched around.

MichaelWe're just going to go live in unicorn world. It's just so irrational. I can't talk about it.

AlexThat means it's good, isn't it? Is it good an idea?

MichaelNo. No, what I'm saying is you're pulling out essential truths like the Lord Jesus Christ and His law from your make-believe world. And so in your make-believe world, you can do anything you want because it doesn't exist. So that's what I'm saying. I can't prove to you that your hypothetical is irrational because it's already irrational. So in your hypothetical, anything's possible.

AlexI don't know what to say to it.

MichaelYeah, in your hypothetical, everything's possible because it's irrational.

AlexIs it good in theory but bad in practice, you think?

MichaelNo.

AlexSo you think the theory's bad?

MichaelYes, any theory that... Hey, you're welcome. Thank you. Any theory that removes Jesus Christ and his law from governing the equation is already a failed one. And so then once you do that, you can prove anything you want within that system. So I can't argue against your system based on the reasoning that your system starts with. I can only say it's irrational from the beginning. It's like you saying you're going to...

AlexI mean, we have more houses than homeless people right now and homeless veterans and stuff So like that. I think everybody should be able to live in a house.

MichaelI'm not saying we don't have a huge government problem in the United States. And I'm not saying we don't have social issues that we need to try to do things about. And that I think government, because it's been such a part of the problem, ultimately doing things in government has to be part of the solution. Even if it's just removing stuff it's doing poorly. So I'm not saying that it's impossible for us to try to do things about it. But I do think that your idea is so antithetical to Christianity, I couldn't entertain it is How? what I'm saying. Just the mere fact that you removed the Eighth Commandment.

AlexStealing?

MichaelYeah. A man should work with I mean, his hands.

Alexbeing stolen under capitalism as well.

MichaelBy your definition. I mean, you lost a deal on your way. By your definition of it. But I'm saying by the biblical definition of what property rights are and what stealing is.

AlexWhat did you say about... just run me through the... I don't... I'm not that educated.

MichaelSo like in Ephesians chapter 4, Paul says that a man should work, and he should... So if we look, for example, let me just go to Ephesians 4. Do you have your Bible app, or do you want... You got it. Here's one. So in Ephesians 4, verse 28, it says, He who has been stealing must steal no longer. So he's talking about once you become a Christian, you should stop all the bad behaviors. We've talked about that. And he says, but must work. So he says you must work. There's no option for a Christian. You must work. And he says doing good with his own hands. So the idea is you should work and produce something. Listen, then he says that he may have something to share with the one in need.

AlexOf course. If only my needs... The government should do that.

MichaelNo, no. This doesn't say that government should It do it. says individuals should.

AlexBut individuals don't do it.

MichaelIndividuals should. The argument is that government just does it for us.

AlexAnd I think that's perfect.

MichaelNo, I think it's wrong. Because if the government does it, and it does it the way you said, where it makes sure I only have my own needs met, now I don't have something to share with others. And so if that You're happens...

Alexsharing your wealth with others.

MichaelNo, I'm not. I don't have any.

AlexSo they I have housing?

Michaeldon't have anything anymore beyond just my basic needs in your unicorn You mean your basic world. needs?

AlexYou Listen...

Michaelstill have personal property. No, in your unicorn world, I just have my basic needs, and I won't have anything to share with anyone else, because I can't earn more. I won't be able to get one more thing, because there's going to be somebody else that needs that thing.

AlexI mean, you can give one more thing.

MichaelI can't.

AlexIt's called personal property.

MichaelAnd so I can't live in a world...

AlexIn communism, you can still have phones.

MichaelI can't live in a world where somebody else can take my things whenever they want and give it to somebody else, where we don't call that It's not whenever they stealing.

Alexwant, it's continuous.

MichaelThat's what our government does now.

AlexWhat?

MichaelIt takes our stuff and gives it I to other people.

Alexknow, and corporations do it too.

MichaelWell, corporations don't take my stuff without me.

AlexI mean, your boss is price gouging you.

MichaelStarbucks is price gouging me. No, I know. I don't shop there, just to be I clear.

Alexdon't think this billion dollar corporation should do that, and I don't think a boss should be able to take your wage.

MichaelBut here's the thing. Why wouldn't you just propose that another guy come along and sell coffee at a little less than Starbucks?

AlexBecause he wants to make as much as possible. I'm talking about big corporations.

MichaelOkay, but if I just start a coffee shop right next to Starbucks and sell it for a buck less a cup and I make a quality cup, won't I do well? Probably. And won't Starbucks lose money?

AlexMost likely not. Because No. they have a bunch of different locations and people already recognize Starbucks as identity. And Okay. when they think of coffee...

MichaelSo you see the only solution to it all is this communism thing.

AlexI mean, communism, democratic socialism, socialism, all that.

MichaelYou should run for office on that, then. See how it goes. Do you believe we should have elections? Or should we just appoint... Oh, yeah, I know.

PasserbyThank you. Wait, are you Sebastian? Hi.

MichaelI'm Demasee, man.

AlexI'm Demasee.

PasserbyJust letting you guys Oh, know this is... don't worry. I know. Thank you.

AlexHow many followers do you have?

MichaelI don't have any followers.

AlexWho do you record it for?

MichaelIt's not even on. I'm kidding. I'm joking. No, I'm joking. my ministry...

AlexI'm an influencer myself.

MichaelI don't know because I only look at YouTube. We have some thousands on there, but I guess some of the other things that I don't look at have more people that watch regularly. Heritage Restored. I actually need to get a sign that has our URL on it. Heritage Restored. If you show me, I'll tell you. It's like a little crown, a little golden crown icon.

AlexIs it on YouTube? Yeah, YouTube. Oh, let me go on YouTube.

MichaelIt's on, I mean, there's like a website, there's YouTube, TikTok, what are all of them, Instagram.

AlexYou should get a mic for other people so I can have one.

MichaelYou're close enough. It's Oh, it is? picking you up, yeah. Some people have a second mic where you can have a conversation with people and it can be broadcast more, but. Yeah, Sebastian sure doesn't want people on the internet hearing us have a discussion.

AlexI don't want us to talk It's about it. It's decent. decent.

MichaelWhat's that?

AlexIt's I'm decent. a TikToker.

MichaelWe're TikTok. on TikTok, I too. don't know how all I that works. just, I'm the on-screen talent. I'm just reading a script, if you didn't notice.

AlexYeah, I do.

MichaelOn the inside of my glasses, I've got all the, someone's teleprompting I me.

Alexdo politics on social Yeah, media.

Michaelwhat's your channel?

AlexBased Alex.

MichaelBased Alex? Yeah. How do you spell it?

AlexB-A-S-E-D-A-L-E-X.

MichaelYou got at Based Alex? Yeah. Look at you, bud. There's probably like a million, there's probably Based Alex hyphen 1, Based Alex hyphen A78928. Look at you, Pretty bud.

Liamsweet.

MichaelSo you need to get truly saved, join the abolition movement, and you need to help get the message out We better. need guys like you.

AlexMy stance on abortion might, I mean, I used to be full abortion, but...

MichaelFor it?

AlexLike, fully. It's Yeah. changed, but...

MichaelIt's moved in that direction.

AlexIt's not educated on it.

MichaelWell, watch some of our stuff and you can hear some more of the things.

AlexI just like focusing on... I like economics, so that's my standpoint, especially I'm on... very educated on... I mean, I just started getting into, like, socialism and communism, but it's very easy I think it's easy to argue a capitalist 100%.

MichaelYeah?

AlexBecause I think it's like a dead ideology. Like, nobody, like, most of Gen Z favors socialism and communism.

MichaelYeah, most people favor something that's different from what...

AlexBecause capitalism doesn't work. I mean, it increases suicide rates, people aren't getting their necessary needs. People who make $100,000 a year, they can't afford to live as well.

MichaelCorrupt government in any situation doesn't work.

AlexWhat capitalist country is prospering?

MichaelA corrupt... If you don't see how the United States has prospered above every other country in the history of the world, then I can't show you.

AlexHow is it prospering?

MichaelI mean, just like the fact that we're standing here with big brick buildings and nice clothes and stuff, it's just that alone. But here's the thing. A corrupt government is going to hurt anybody.

AlexChina still do the same thing. They're still capitalists.

MichaelSo let's say you had a communist society. Let's say you had a capitalist society. It was all as pure as any of us believed it could be, okay? Like, who cares if you're right, I'm wrong, whatever. If we all had our dream world that we've argued for, as soon as you get sinners in that world who are still greedy, who are still wanting more for themselves than others, who aren't willing to share with others like Ephesians 4 says, as soon as you get people like that, you're going to end up with some problem.

AlexCommunism is so good because it allows us to share our wealth with other people.

MichaelYeah, like in North Korea? Is that what you mean? Like North Korea or China?

AlexChina is not really Marxist.

MichaelSo you're going to say it's not really communist. Okay. So here's the thing. No matter which situation you're in.

AlexChina's doing really well right now.

MichaelNo matter which. Well, when you have all slave labor, you know. I mean, it's the same here. I don't disagree. I don't disagree that we have benefited from slave labor and still do because we buy from China. But sinners are what's going to mess things up. And sinners running your People government.

Alexare working slave wages, so they're basically slaves as well, like in China.

MichaelYeah, there's a slight People difference. in China aren't getting paid wages.

AlexThey get houses.

MichaelThere's a difference, but...

AlexI mean, the difference is that people, slaves here, they don't have houses, and they have to go into maybe a homeless shelter or something.

MichaelSure. Yeah, I'm not saying it always works out for every individual either, but our homeless people are way fatter than anywhere So else. we've got well-fed poor people here.

AlexI do not think homeless people are that fat.

MichaelYeah, a lot of them are. We have a lot of benefits here. I do not think we have a lot of benefits here either. You guys can spit on them all you want, but ultimately, as long as sinners are running the show, you're going to have problems. In any culture, there's no perfect government.

AlexI think there should be a Christian socialist.

MichaelWell, if... I mean, maybe they support abortion, maybe they don't. No, I understand what you're trying to say. And I'm saying that it's all destined to fail without Christ. The only government that we can...

AlexSo we can't even try because it's already going to fail?

MichaelNo, we need to try. We need to try to do it His way. But what I'm saying is there's always going to be a problem in this world before Christ returns. And so we need to acknowledge that and not necessarily judge the theological system as we watch it play out because sinners mess up. Jesus had 12 disciples he picked and one of them turned out to be a devil. I don't think we'd say Jesus was a bad selector.

AlexI think we should have a revolution and stuff like that.

MichaelWell, grab your musket, buddy.

AlexI mean, it doesn't even have to be a revolution like that. I mean, I just want the workers to be in power. The actual workers.

MichaelIf you think it can be done peacefully, then lead the way, buddy. Like, you know, it's just not how it seems to play out in history, but... I'm not saying it's easy, I'm not saying it's... There's a utopia.

AlexI'm not fully against democratic socialism. I think democratic socialism can be a way to pull socialism and communism That's together. perfect. If we can vote for it instead of it being forced.

MichaelIf you can establish a government that's foundational principles that it follows are aligned with God's law, I think you have a chance. If you pull any of those out, I think you're always going to fail one way or I another. think it's one reason our government is failing is because we sanction murder. And I think that God's judgment is upon a people that would approve of that. And so the economic problems we see, I think, are actually fruits of a country that has murdered 50 million children or 60 million children.

AlexThat's perfect ideology for You you. can definitely be against abortion and think that it should be a state law against all these states.

MichaelI think it should be a federal law. A federal law. Both. I just think murder should be wrong, which it already is. We should apply murder equally to all humans.

AlexYeah, I mean, you can definitely do that in a communist society. That's And just... that can be your ideology.

MichaelWell, yeah, I mean, but in a communist society, you have other problems. That's not necessarily the... That's not necessarily the command you're pulling out in a communist society.

AlexLike what?

MichaelWell, I've I already told you. think it's the eighth commandment that we lose in a communist society.

AlexI don't think so.

MichaelNo, I You know. redefine it. So you're going to study psychology just to get a degree. Yeah. And then go do physical therapy?

AlexNot physical therapy.

MichaelWhat kind of therapy then?

AlexMental.

MichaelOkay.

AlexMore the mental aspect. You know, people have been in accidents and everything.

MichaelSo psychology stuff.

AlexYeah, but they get paid more.

MichaelOh, just a different form of it.

AlexYeah, I still want to make a livable wage and not have to... College is too expensive to go on for 12 years for psych.

MichaelGotcha.

AlexI just want to be a psychiatrist. Yeah, I You think...

Michaelwant to be an IT guy.

AlexReally? Yeah. I mean, I think it definitely follows Jesus' teachings on I helping people. don't think I'm going to help anybody from working at a desk job.

MichaelYeah. I mean, you're going to help people if you're a Christian no matter what you do. If you're a Christian shoemaker...

AlexYeah, I just want to do it 24-7 every day.

MichaelYeah, but if...

AlexI just want to be part of the Catholic Church.

MichaelYou can't help people if you're telling them things that are different from what God says is helpful.

AlexI'm not going to teach abortion or anything or my personal beliefs on others like that.

MichaelNo? Then when somebody wants to do something evil and you won't speak against it, you're a partaker in their evil deeds.

AlexI mean, I think every capitalist is evil and people still partake in those deeds.

MichaelBut you're speaking against capitalism. Yeah. So nobody could say, hey, I'm a capitalist and Alex didn't warn me against it. Right? Nobody can say that. But people could say, I'm going to kill my baby and Alex approved of it and Liam approved of it. I just have to So see. you're a partaker.

AlexI just have to see, is it or is it not justified or not? But I'm not educated enough.

MichaelYeah, I just don't think murdering a child is justified ever.

LiamIt's not a child. It's not birthed yet.

MichaelYou can't just define a person differently. That's what the slaveholders did. They said those black people weren't people. They weren't persons like us.

LiamThat's a very skin color to birth. Yeah. it's very different things.

MichaelWell, but it's just, both times the person categorically decided because of another person's development or because of the way they look that we're going to classify that person as not a person who previously was considered a person, was considered Are you going to consider human.

Liamsperm a person?

MichaelNo, Are would you you?

Liamgoing to consider an egg a person?

MichaelNo, would you? No.

LiamSo why them together for a few months before it leaves? Why would you consider that a person?

MichaelThe moment they're united, there's a person.

AlexI don't know.

MichaelYeah, that's how God chose to have humans start. And that's the most tender time for them, the most vulnerable time. We should protect them more at that stage.

AlexI just have to see. I have to look more and more.

MichaelAnd honestly, I'm not a huge fan of you being Catholic, but you should read what the Catholic Church has pretty much maintained about it.

AlexWhat about, what's your idea on IUD?

MichaelIUDs are, they function as abortifacients. So what that means that is if you have an IUD, you do not prevent conception necessarily.

AlexAn IUD I mean, there's still a zygote that the IUD kills.

Michaelthe IUD kills the human that was created and so it is abortion and it's murder. You're just not intentionally murdering that one. You're just kind of randomly, it's like you're firing a shotgun at your kids and hoping to get one instead of just picking one out So the IUD is basically an abortion? but it's not always an abortion because if you get an IUD and you didn't get pregnant, you didn't technically abort anyone, right? The heart that's willing to take that risk with your child's life is already a murderous heart in the eyes of Jesus and needs forgiveness because of his death, burial, and resurrection. Absolutely. And IVF has. IVF has killed even more. Absolutely. Yeah. But an IUD is just a tool. So the tool is doing the killing. And IUD is a tool, and so I can't accuse somebody of murder if I can't prove they murdered anybody, right? Even if you would grant my premise for a minute that sperm and egg coming together creates a unique human. If you ended up killing that baby and I can't prove it, like, I can't prosecute you, right?

AlexIf you're choosing to use that tool, I think if I was in your position, I'd definitely define that as abortion.

MichaelI would, but I can't. But if you put an IUD in, or a woman has an IUD, and she never has sex, and never gets pregnant, she technically didn't abort anybody. Yeah, that's fine So if you use it that way. I can't prove it is what I'm saying. But if I was advising people, I'd say there are certain methods, if you want to approve contraception at all, there are certain methods that prevent conception so it doesn't actually kill a baby. And there's other methods people use that make the uterine lining unsuitable for a baby and thus kill a conceived baby. I think that's depraved indifference and I think it's murder in the eyes of God. And even if I can't catch you doing it and prosecute you...

AlexExtensive, you own like abortion, like that extends like IUDs, IVFs.

MichaelYeah, IVF is explicit abortion That's though. not like an accidental one. That's like we know we have an embryo and we're going to throw it away or we're going to burn it or however they dispose of them. And so IVF is explicit abortion. Or they freeze them, which is also not a just way to treat humans. Yeah, for sure. If there's a pregnancy. See, yeah.

AlexYeah.

MichaelOr like if you take the pill, the pill can make the uterine lining unsuitable for an embryo, and it'll kill the embryo. Do you want to say something? Have you had an abortion or took I in the pill? have. So God can forgive you for murder.

PasserbyI don't believe in your God.

MichaelYeah, but my God, but he's real. But you're going to stand before him whether you believe in him or not. Nice fail on the camera there, Greg. That was your chance to show your stuff. Turn it around. Man, can't pay good people. You know how much I pay them? Zero. There's my slaves. Well, it's too late now. She's gone. But given the premise is that, you know, I know you don't agree, but if a sperm in an egg creates a unique human being, which I'm saying it does, Then, anytime you kill it, you're killing a human. I think there's people that do it somewhat ignorantly at times. Like, sometimes doctors just give teenage girls the pill to help with like a hormonal issue or something. And they may not realize that it could kill their baby. They just think they have a period or something. But then there's other people who like, they walk into an IVF clinic, they donate sperm and eggs, And they literally tell the IVF person, make as many little embryos as you can, grade them based on their quality, and then take the best one and put it in my womb, and the rest throw away or freeze. It's explicitly murder. It's explicitly neglect if you freeze them without murdering them.

AlexYeah, I don't know. I'm not educated on it at all.

MichaelYeah, well, I just educated you on it.

AlexNow I have to look at the other side and cross-examine and stuff.

MichaelYeah, it's a good idea to check it out. out. What would change your mind about the birth canal being the magical human granting place?

LiamNothing really.

MichaelNothing? So a C-section, are they a person when they come out too? Or Yeah. do they have to go through the birth canal?

LiamThey're still birthed with a C-section.

MichaelWhat if they're still connected with the cord? Is it when the cord is cut that they stop being...

LiamIt is when they are given a birth certificate.

MichaelOh, so if the birth certificate takes a couple days, then they're not human yet? And they can be killed?

LiamIt is when they enter our world.

MichaelWell, they're already in our world when they're in the womb.

LiamIt is when they can develop their first thoughts outside of the womb.

MichaelOkay, when does that happen?

LiamWhen So they're at birth.

Michaelon a kid's birthday, they have thoughts.

LiamYes.

MichaelAnd that gives them... But while they're inside their mother, they don't have thoughts?

LiamThey aren't in person yet.

MichaelThey Would don't have thoughts?

Liamyou consider a cake in the oven a cake while it's cooking? Would you consider that a cake yet? No. Once you take it out, it's a cake. Once it's still in the oven, it's still cooking.

MichaelSo you don't know the difference between a sperm, an egg, and a zygote, And you don't know the difference between a cake and a human.

LiamI'm trying to get into standards for you. Because you've been comparing abortion to slavery.

AlexEven if abortion is murder and it gets enacted as illegal, people are still going to do it. I don't think it's going to stop the problem.

MichaelSure. People do all sorts of bad things. You're right.

AlexIt's very easy to get away with it.

MichaelYeah. No, you're right. I don't disagree that people will still do it. So you think a cake and a human developing is comparable. So, but given your analogy, if the cake is done, but I didn't take it out of the oven yet, is it done?

LiamIt's still in the oven, it's not a cake yet.

MichaelSo it magically becomes a cake when I take it out of the oven?

LiamYes. Otherwise it's still just the ingredients to make a cake.

MichaelSo it's like sitting there on the rack, right? And I open the oven, alright?