Rosaria Butterfield on Understanding and Loving Our Gay and Lesbian Friends

I want to invite you into a conversation on the relationship between homosexuality and Christian faith. Hi, I'm Mark Mellinger from the Gospel Coalition, and joining me to walk us through this is Rosaria Butterfield, author of Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. Hey, it's really good to have you here. Thank you for setting aside the time. Thank you.

Thank you. A lot that we can get to in this interview, and let's start here. In your previous life as a lesbian, you said that you largely experienced born-again Christians as ungracious people, almost fanatical in temperament. Largely. I didn't say entirely. But that was largely your experience.

Let me ask, that was quite a while ago, more than 15 years ago. Do you think that's changing now? Well, that's a hard question because it says a lot about point of view. But I was a professor at the time, and my experience with Christians was that, for the most part, they were fearful people. They used the Bible as a punctuation mark to end a conversation rather than deepen it.

And if I had any questions, thus saith the Lord, ended the question. And so I'm not, I didn't understand if they obeyed such a holy and great God, why they were motivated by so much fear. So, you know, that context, it was that sort of snippet. The other context that I really interfaced with Christians with were gay pride marches. Let's face it, the raising of political placards is not always the friendliest of exchanges.

So, you know, I would see the placard with the I'm going to hell, and then a friend of mine put together a placard that said, you know, if AIDS is God's curse on homosexuals, then lesbians must be God's chosen people. So let's just face it, that is probably not the best opportunity for dialogue. So it truly wasn't until I met Ken Smith as a friend and as a neighbor.

Pastor of the RP Church in Syracuse where you were a professor. That's right. That some of the external difficulties that I think are always there in interfacing with people who just simply think differently than we do, those were put aside. Okay, so you're saying that's always going to be it. There's always probably going to be a segment about evangelicalism that's like that.

You may not have been getting the whole picture. Absolutely, and I think the other challenge is, and right now we can really feel the pressure because we are in a crisis. We're in a moral crisis. We're in a civil crisis, and Christians are losing. That's just how it is. Oh, that's just how it is.

And one of the things we can do is acknowledge the fact that when Christians are losing socially and politically, we actually do better. We do better. In what sense? We pray more and we're humble. And we do not make moral proclamations in place of gospel invitations. Now, one of the big challenges that we will always have is, and it's just a simple rule.

And in fact, I'm sure you have noticed this, that this Lord's Day when you go to church, if you said everything that was on your heart about everyone in the church, how would that go for you? It wouldn't go over so well. It wouldn't go very well. I'm a pastor's wife. It really wouldn't go over for me. I'd probably get kicked out of the church.

Right, right, right, right. Maybe out of the state. Right, exactly. Because you know and I know that the strength of your words needs to match the strength and the integrity of your relationship. Well, that's true for unbelievers too. don't presume that your gay and lesbian neighbors that the worst sin in their life is sexuality maybe the worst sin is unbelief in fact unbelief actually is a higher sin so how can you possibly have strong words without strong relationships and how can you possibly have strong relationships without taking the risk of being rejected See, there's a personal risk.

If you want to put the hand of the lost into the hand of the Savior, you actually have to get close enough to get hurt. And that's a new idea for many Christians, but it's the ground rules of the new game. Well, and I think that the reason for a lot of Christians that that is a difficult thing to think about is because you know if it is a gay and lesbian co-worker or neighbor. there's probably going to come a point in that relationship where even if it starts out friendly and totally on good terms there's going to come a point where they're going to know how you feel about their lifestyle how do you how do you suggest christians navigate that moment that part of a relationship well that part of the relationship is true for any unbelieving neighbor Yes, yes, you're right.

So first of all I don that doesn really register on the Richter scale for me So that is the but the other real issue is It is a deeply held identity though right And it has a political lobbying block, which makes it even harder. Yes. So the one thing, though, that you want to do always with your unbelieving neighbors is to try to figure out what the gospel bridge is.

You know, it might not be through the rebuking of sexual sin. you know I don't yeah you don't need to go there well you might need to go there but not necessarily but what if you are neighbors to you know what if you're a lesbian neighbors who have been in a committed you know marriage for 50 years have separate bedrooms and haven't had sex in 20 years and you will look like an idiot when you rebuke them for their sexuality and they will be the first to tell you that your menopause is coming on man and you are whooping yeah right so so let's be clear on what the sin is. You know, the Lord is very specific. When the Lord convicts us of sin, it's not on the surface.

And you know, God forbid, if when we repent of sin, all we do is deal with the surface. So why don't you find out what's going on and find out what the, some of the real deep issues, because you know, homosexuality is a root of something else. I remember you said that in your book. You said that homosexuality is symptomatic. It is symptomatic. Okay, so now explain what you mean and why that is so important to understand.

Well, because if all you do is repent of a sin at its surface, it would be like you and I going out in the garden, and we see all of these dandelions, and we're going to solve the problem by snipping the tops off. You know that doesn't work. Well, in fact, it makes it worse. Yeah, that's right. And what it does is it makes it worse. And I think so often we are asking people to repent of a fruit sin and not going to its root.

And Romans 1 tells us what the root of homosexuality is. And I felt like my experience, I really resonated with Romans 1. the fruit of homosexuality is the ethical outworking of a heart and a mind and an identity that rejects the idea that God is author and that the implication of that, that the Bible has the right to interrogate my life, not the other way around. So really what homosexuality is, it's an ethical outworking of original sin.

And you know what that means? We're born that way. We're all born that way. It's common to everybody. Any sexual sin is really a manifestation of that, right? Absolutely.

And so I don't think of, we should not think about our gay and lesbian neighbors as struggling with something that is different. Absolutely. It is not different. It's part of the human condition. It is part of the human condition. We all reject God and want to be in control of our own lives.

You're saying that's what's really going on here. That's what's really going on. Now, it gets complex in this new world of revisionist theology, the six scripture passages that condemn homosexuality aren't really true, God didn't mean that. The challenge is we are dealing with a weak gospel presentation over the course of decades, combined with a silly sinner's prayer that have falsely allowed people to think that they are Christians because there's a video of them singing, you know, this little light of mine, you know, in their church choir.

And really, the need to share the real gospel is urgent, both within and without the church. So when someone says to me, I'm a Christian and I'm gay, I often, I don't have to ask you why you think you're gay because, you know, I get it. But I do have to ask you why you think you're a Christian. I mean, and hopefully we are friends enough that I can slowly, you know, that you and I can get there.

Because friends want to know those things. Can someone self-identify as gay and be a Christian? Someone can identify as someone who is struggling with same-sex attraction. You will struggle. And some people will identify that as gay Christians. That's what they will call themselves.

You don't have a problem with that. I have a big problem with that. You do have a big problem with that. And I'll tell you why. Well, I'm an English professor, of course. I guess we can't diagram a sentence back here.

But gay is an adjective. Christian is a noun. And the job of an adjective or modifier is actually to change the noun it modifies. So you say you're a gay Christian. You know what you're doing? You're putting on the wrong team jersey.

It's a paradox. And you're going out on the field and you're playing. and you confusing everybody You may be a Christian who struggles with same attraction You may be a Christian who struggles with any manner of sin But as soon as you embrace an adjectival modifier and claim that as your identity you are not identifying fully with Christ. And here is what you are saying.

You say you're a gay Christian. You are saying, Holy Spirit, don't touch me there. That's off-limits. That's my identity. So, no, I... Do you think I have strong opinions?

I do. I don't know. And that's fine. That's one reason you're an interesting interviewer and making an impact. But I can talk about that in my workshop this afternoon. Yes, here at the Gospel Coalition's Women's Conference where we're doing this interview.

A few more things that I want to get to, and I'm going a little longer with you than I am on many of the other interviews because people really want to hear from you. I'm so sorry. You do believe sexual orientation can change. This has been sort of a politically controversial issue. You honestly believe, yes, it can. You've seen it happen.

I've seen it happen. And I've seen it happen much more with women than with men. I will just say that. But I do not believe that sexual orientation changes are a gospel imperative. Right, that doesn't have to change if you're a believer. I'm on record for saying reparative therapy is a heresy.

It's the heresy of the prosperity gospel. You know, one of the things that's hard for American Christians especially is that on this earth, God will give some people ten crosses to bear and another person won. And I think part of the prosperity gospel is to say, no, commit your life to Jesus and all will be well. But that's not what the gospel says. Not at all.

What the gospel promises is that if God gives you a heavy cross to bear, the Lord himself will uphold the heavier part. But God forbid Christians weigh on that cross. And I think that when we look at orientation change as proof of gospel fruits, we're actually weighing on that cross. Let the Lord work in the life of that person. That person is a precious son or daughter to the Lord himself.

And there is a vital role for single and celibate Christians in our families, in our churches, and in our world. you described your conversion as as bittersweet is is that something first of all first of all you never hear conversion described that way it's it's not the christian way to do it you should know that i do um but you know i thought that was really interesting i think anybody who has been on this earth and comes to christ as an adult needs to be prepared for that it seems like they're not, right? I have to tell you. Yes, I think that's right.

And I'm just trying to be honest. And you can pray for me, okay? I mean, you know, look, I was all out there. You can pray for me. But the gay and lesbian community is a real community. And you know what?

The Christian church has a lot to learn. Not about theology, not about salvation, not about reward, but about standing with the disempowered, accompanying suffering, and being good company for the suffering. Now, I came of age in the gay community when AIDS had just unleashed itself and we didn't know what it was. And that is hard. That is a very hard thing.

But one of the things that is true, and it is just universally true, standing with the disempowered is a necessary thing. I often speak to parents who feel like they have lost covenantal children to the gay community and what I will say to them is you will have to work very hard to love your son and daughter better than the gay community is I'm sorry to say that, I know that's shocking, I know that's scandalous but it's just how it is, you know the truth I am telling you that you will have to work very hard because we have, and I think it's in part because of our real lack of a real understanding of what church membership means. And a lack of understanding that the church is not a man-made institution, it's a God-made institution.

We are so shaky on these things that we have made it, you know, the resonating effect of that is that we tend to have very fractured communities instead of an integrated, loving one that can embrace people who are lost and who are scared. And you know, the thing that I want Christians to know too is the worst part about same-sex attraction, pretty much if you ask anybody, it's actually not the sex. I mean, a lot of it.

Right. You know, it's the loneliness and it's the fear of growing old alone. And if you look at our churches and you say, wow, the only people who are not alone on Christmas and Mother Day and da are people who are in marriages That gives a terrible example of what the church is supposed to be If the church is available and alive and present and a community by invitation only, see, that's not a community.

That's not a community. So I suppose what I want to say is, probably a lot of that is my sin, if I'm still bittersweet about this, but I long for a real Christian community. Okay, so with gay marriage becoming the norm rapidly in this country, is it more of a moment of great opportunity for the church, or is it more of a moment of great peril? Well, it had better be a moment of great opportunity, because today is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.

You know, the Lord is determining your circumstances, and your circumstances do not determine whether you're going to get up and do something. But we need to share the gospel and we need to stop adding to the gospel. And what I mean by that is we need to share the gospel of hope in Jesus, not rant about anal sex, for example. You know, I mean, you know, I'll tell you, most folks in the lesbian community have some opinions about it too.

So it's not just good Bible-believing Christians. have some issues, but that can be very distracting. That can be very distracting. We have sadly decided to take, you know, pull punches, take attacks from behind the walls instead of really coming up beside our friends and our neighbors. And I'm a Reformed Christian. I believe that God's elect people are everywhere, including the gay and lesbian community. so of course of course this is the opportunity God gave us I was even praying with someone recently who thanked God for these times I was quite rebuked by his prayer because I have not been doing that but I think that's the right prayer I think this is the moment that the Lord has made let me end it right here you describe your past as an R-rated past you're certainly not the only parent out there who has an R-rated past.

And it doesn't have to be homosexuality. There are plenty of us who have had affairs or were promiscuous when we were younger. Let me ask you, how do... First of all, do you have to talk about that R-rated past at some point with your kids? And if so, how? Is that an important enough part of your story that you must share with them?

Right, right, right. You know, I think that marriages are very precious things. And so in your marriage, you need to discuss how you will talk to your children. In our household, it has always been open. We read through the Bible as a family, and as we come up to certain passages, why, there I am. You know, I am Rahab the harlot.

There was never a day when we sat down with our children and they said, Okay, we have something very serious to tell you. your mother was an atheist and a lesbian, and you were adopted. Okay, never talk to me again about it. It's all over. I mean, right? We're all messy people. We're very messy people.

So my children, they were raised cutting their teeth on this conversation. It seems to me that it is important to talk to children in a way that is appropriate to their situation. But if you don't talk to them, someone else will. You see, Christians are called to be good stewards of ideas. And if you just say, well, I'm just going to wait this out, you are neglecting a responsibility of the covenants. because if you don't steward those ideas, why someone else would.

And then it becomes hard for your children. You know, why are my lesbian neighbors the nicest people on the block? Well, you know, God's common grace is something that you need to teach them about. And if all you do is, you know, all you do is either stuff it under or simply rehash the old ghost stories, at some point your kid's going to say, well, but they're nice to me.

You know, they're genuinely kind. When the dog got loose, they returned the dog. They made me brownies on my birthday. You know, God's common grace is not something to fear. But that's not the full story, because there are only two things that are eternal, the Word of God and the souls of people. And we need to get to the business of majoring on those majors.

A wonderful note on which to end this interview. Rosaria Butterfield, thank you so much. Thank you, Mark.